Gerun Oracles

[Berethos]

Children = Some primals. I don't think Bishmark, Moggle and the bug are aware of Hydaelyn like the others.

I'm not sure I would say they are unaware of Hydaelyn, simply that they don't make as direct a reference to her (the song that is supposed to be from Rav's point of view does mention her). Bismarck...well he never talks to us (unlike pretty much every other primal) so we don't know (and he may be simply more beast like, in that he just operates on urges like the need to feed).

That said, I'm not sure the Children referenced are the primals, largely because both Igeyorhm and Tiamat talk about how they are creations of the mortal races - the Ascian calls them "the embodiment of mortal will - of mortal desire" while Tiamat says "the beings thy kind call gods are but specters of thy mind's creation, given form at great cost to Hydaelyn."

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of primals in general being original beings sent by Hydaelyn.

I think it covers a much broader idea - mortals in general.

[Fenral]

This again? Coincidence. Complete and utter happenstance, and in no way related to anyone's master plan in any way, shape, or form. The Allagans had no idea he was even there, I tell you, and Middy didn't care in the slightest about anything they were doing.

[Nalien]

This again? Coincidence. Complete and utter happenstance, and in no way related to anyone's master plan in any way, shape, or form. The Allagans had no idea he was even there, I tell you, and Middy didn't care in the slightest about anything they were doing.

Which I find odd... Thordan VII summons a Primal, prompting Nidhogg to get serious, and Midgardsormr joins the song, but he does nothing for Tiamat and Bahamut? Seems unlikely to me, perhaps Tiamat brought great shame upon the family so he buried his head, but he certainly didn't give that impression when we met her...

I'd imagine the difference is whatever he was guarding... Pre-XIV the "seal" was intact and he wasn't allowed to leave the area at all; Crystal Tower was built next door to mock him perhaps. Post-XIV, he destroyed the "seal" (yes, Middy did, he crashed the Agrius into it, he at least takes part of the blame IMO) and is thus no longer bound to the lake, able to join his son until we show up and he instead follows us.

[Frederick22]

Middy joining the chorus.

What Midgardsormr told us is that he hear his son's call to join him on the chorus. But who said he will answer?? He never said such a thing, he heared his song, he knew what would become of Ishgard but joining the fighits its a different thing.
Before meeting us, maybe he just planned to ignore it.

Middy has being always like that. "Sorry kids, im not gotta get invovled in your issues, solve it yourselfs, daddy is not gonna come"

[Nalien]

Before meeting us, maybe he just planned to ignore it.

He was joining the chorus for Nidhoggs song of retribution, everything he says in that cutscene puts him solely on Nidhoggs side until Hydaelyn comes into it, "We do not forget, we do not forgive", "Ishgard shall burn", and so on. He even says he'll rise to join in the chorus, before implying he was going to kill us. It was only when it became apparent that we were Hydaelyns chosen did he do a complete 180 and instead opt to ignore Nidhogg and watch us instead.

[Cilia]

[Midgardsormr] was joining the chorus for Nidhoggs song of retribution, everything he says in that cutscene puts him solely on Nidhoggs side until Hydaelyn comes into it, "We do not forget, we do not forgive", "Ishgard shall burn", and so on. He even says he'll rise to join in the chorus, before implying he was going to kill us. It was only when it became apparent that we were Hydaelyns chosen did he do a complete 180 and instead opt to ignore Nidhogg and watch us instead.

Yes and no. The English version portrays him as outright hostile, but the Japanese dialogue paints him as far more ambiguous. He never says he's going to join Nidhogg, just that he's not going to stop him either. It's rather similar in the English dialogue, though he does say that he's "[rising] to join in the chorus" and the Japanese Midgardsormr says "Do not think I spare your life for no reason."

Reading into ambiguous characters like Middy takes a step back and objective viewing, but he was never outright hostile - the "fight" against him is, like Ramuh, just a test to prove our worth, and he did nothing to actually topple Ishgard in the millennium-long Dragonsong War. He's very much an observer rather than someone on the stage - the only thing he actually does is strip you of the Blessing of Light and then spirit you out of the exploding Singularity Reactor at the end of 2.5 and 3.0, respectively.

[CyrilLucifer]

snip

This always came off as strangely to me.

You are not the only Echo user, nor are you the only one of Hydaelyn's servants - to quote SE, there are 'many' working on Her behalf - so why the immediate 180? Does tradition or his pact demand he drop everything and give the WoL his full attention when the Warrior appears before him, regardless of his original intentions, which to me seemed closer to remaining neutral? I just find that a bit unlikely.

I suppose this is one of those answers we won't be getting until later. Middy hoards his secrets like he would treasure.

Edit directed towards Cillia: Middy actually says "Rise and join the chorus" at least 3 times overall in KotL when he raises the dead dragons, so it's a repeated phrase, not just a one off translation tidbit. I would know, I've gotten it 4 times in roulette this week on BLM and it's driving me crazy.

[AstralKaos]

This again? Coincidence. Complete and utter happenstance, and in no way related to anyone's master plan in any way, shape, or form. The Allagans had no idea he was even there, I tell you, and Middy didn't care in the slightest about anything they were doing.

Calm down, didn't say it had anything to do with the master plan of anyone or anything, was just a mild thought put into my post before getting to what I meant to say.

And that is, the part about Spaceman Middy. He's a piece of this puzzle, I'm most interested in finding out how big a piece.

And honestly, I find it unlikely that the Allagan Empire, of all groups, didn't know about at least the importance of Silvertear which would in turn mean they knew of the myth of that Guardian Deity, but that's another topic.

[Fenral]

Calm down

I was kidding. :P

I've been advocating for some sort of connection since it was announced that discovering what Middy's been up to was a thing on our agenda this expac.

[myahele]

Since there was just one sea that ended up being split into 14, I can't help but wonder if the Ascien's "Rejoining" is actually then literally rejoining the these seas together? That they can only rejoin the seas once every Umbral era?

There have been at least 6 successful rejoining (as stated by Elidibus) and that the 7th one has always failed due to the WoL. I imagine that the 7th and final rejoining will merge these "seas" and Zodiark with Hydaelyn; effectively making Zodiark whole again