[Feedback] We need a solution to help players improve... Simple Idea.

[Kallera]

If someone wants to kick you for parsing low they already are, just with a different excuse.

People tend to not openly discuss numbers unless asked, though. A parser would cause that to become a literal measure of a player's worth.

I'm not entirely cool with that being fully endorsed.

[SpookyGhost]

People tend to not openly discuss numbers unless asked, though. A parser would cause that to being a literal measure of a player's worth.

They don't need to tell you "you have X DPS, therefore you are bad, therefore you are kicked" to... kick you. If they have that number available to them through a 3rd party program, know that you're parsing low, and want to kick you they will just come up with a different excuse. As long as they don't explicitly say the quote (or some other variation) then they're in the clear. So the only thing that would change for them is they would say "you're parsing low bye" instead of coming up with another excuse. Nothing would actually change in that regard, if parsers can harm the community then they already are.

[Kallera]

They don't need to tell you "you have X DPS, therefore you are bad, therefore you are kicked" to... kick you. If they have that number available to them through a 3rd party program, know that you're parsing low, and want to kick you they will just come up with a different excuse. As long as they don't explicitly say the quote (or some other variation) then they're in the clear. So the only thing that would change for them is they would say "you're parsing low bye" instead of coming up with another excuse. Nothing would actually change in that regard, if parsers can harm the community then they already are.

I think that they can, depending on their use. I would certainly trust the df and community less, as you are right, no one needs to say anything to kick people. I do believe that kicking people will happen more often and more frivolusly.

[RickXRolled]

I think that they can, depending on their use. I would certainly trust the df and community less, as you are right, no one needs to say anything to kick people. I do believe that kicking people will happen more often and more frivolusly.

Maybe then the people getting kicked constantly will finally wake up or turn off netflix when they quee for something?

[Azazua_azura]

Unless Im reading it wrong Phoenicia didn't come across elitist in the slightest there. Just cause you don't agree with them doesn't make them elitist.

Also DPS meters do indeed show what skills are used.

I didn't disagree woith anything they said, in alot of cases I agree but the way they worded it does come off as elitist, Stuff like forcing advice on people, that is rude. Not everyone likes to be helped, they like to figure stuff out for themselves, I'm one of those people. If you ask if I want advice, I'm all for hearing it.

burning through dungeons doesn't help new players learn, mechanic skippinbg doesn't help people learn.


I also apologised for my mistake the parsers im familure with didn't,

If someone wants to kick you for parsing low they already are, just with a different excuse.

Currently only certain percent use parser. Currently only the PC players, albeit illegally, have access to them and we don't what percent of that use it. It isn't factually correct to assume 100% if the PC player base use parser.

And PC players only are part of the community, we also have ps3 players and ps4 players. If this meter/parser
/grading system is ever release 100% of player would have access to it and use it against anyone in the party.

people should never be kicked for being new or learning. We wall learn in different ways in different paces.

I think its rude to force you're views on other, or force feed a person info simply because something irks you.

Being a jaded vet is the wrong way to help a person.

What really helps players is let them learn the content.
Let them see everything, and let them learn how to handle it.
Like ignoring adds, how can players learn to deal with them if they are told to ignore them so a vet can get their rewards faster?

How are people suppose to learn to deal with other mob mechanics if people again tell them to ignore it?

Dps is literally a gear thing. There is more go being a good player then having a high dps and toping a parser/ getting top marks in a grading system.

I think people should learn the game first then max their dps.

People who jump straight to maxing dps imo is doing it wrong.

[Phoenicia]

Ironic, since people with autism have a hard time looking at things from another's PoV and caring about anyone other then themselves.( I'm also Autistic)

Also, dps meters do show you the skills used.

I'd rather we refrain from attacking people in person. There was no reason to bring her autism up even if you also are autistic. It was totally uncalled for. Azazua and I want the same end, we're just disagreeing on the means.

Snip.

The whole reason my walls of text end up being walls is that I AM looking at things from a PoV that isn't mine. I explain, iterate and use analogies to convey things so the other PoVs see it.

I am, no where in my post, asking to "burn through content". Quite the opposite. I am telling you NOT to "burn through" if you can't. I do not expect you to skip phases if you can't. But if you can, and it is better, why the heck not?

You are also right, people should learn basics first before "maxing" anything. People that say "ignore adds" or certain mechanics is usually because those adds or mechanics hardly affect the fight in a significant way. If you wanna kill the bees that do basically nothing in the Sohm Al, be my guest. But if you're gonna spend an hour trying to kill that Bee because you can't even bother to learn that Chaos Thrust comes after Impulse Drive?... I'm sorry, there is an issue to be addressed here.

People not wanting advice is understandable. I like to figure things out by myself also. And I definitely do not like getting helped. Ask all the people close to me. But the problem here isn't advice about a new mechanic where you need 5 to 30 minutes to figure out. Heck, for the whole first week or two of new patches, I ask people if they wanna "enjoy and discover" or have the mechanics spilled out for them. I even ask the others that if they have cleared not to "spoil" the fun for me. I do that from any dungeon all the way to top tier raids (Except Alexander Savage, I wasn't very keen on it at first for a few reasons out of this topic's scope).

But if you took whatever-many-days you played from level 1 to 54 on BLM and still haven't figured out by yourself that Fire is there for damage and blizzard for MP? Chances are you're never going to figure it out yourself and someone HAS to intervene. Specially when YOUR performance is hurting EVERYONE ELSE'S TIME. Now how you spend your time is entirely up to you, but I definitely value mine. And I would rather be productive (even in game) than spend say 1 hour in Aurum Vale/The Aery because Mr. I-don't-like-to-be-helped didn't want people to help him take baby steps like eating fruit at 3 stacks or killing the prison before it explodes and kills the healer, when he should be jumping 10 feet. Notice here I'm not saying they're teaching him to jump 10 feet, they're teaching him the baby steps that he's failing at.

And how am I coming off as an elitist when I clearly said "If runs are running smooth, I would not give advice"? Let us look at the definition of elitism then.

On Wikipedia: Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, high intellect , wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others; whose views on a matter are to be taken more seriously or carry more weight; whose views or actions are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.

On a dictionary:
adjective:
1. (of a person or class of persons) considered superior by others or by themselves, as in intellect, talent, power, wealth, or position in society.
2. catering to or associated with an elitist class, its ideologies, or its institutions.
noun:
1. a person having, thought to have, or professing superior intellect or talent, power, wealth, or membership in the upper echelons of society.
2. a person who believes in the superiority of an elitist class.

Since I do not believe myself to have mastered my class or to belong to the top raiding community, I cannot be an elitist. I do not "impose" my "intellect" or "talent" or "skills" on anyone. I do not claim to have, or if anyone should have, authority on anyone else. All I do is value my own time while still accommodating to help those who have trouble. I offer help when people clearly struggle.

Heck, by definition, anyone thinking advice givers are elitists IS the elitist. Ironic, huh? lol

As long as you are doing passable DPS as a DPS, I do not care. Heck, even if you're doing 200 and I can carry you, I do not care. If you're a tank and you're not losing aggro or dying to everything you pull, I do not care. If you're a healer and you're keeping everyone from dying (granted they're decent enough not to eat everything that damages them) without the tank popping Hallowed Ground and the SMN/BLM healing everywhere in the dungeon, I don't care. Even if you do not DPS as a healer or tank. I want my clear and I want it with the least headache possible. But I expect dungeons to be cleared in roughly 25 minutes. I am fine with that 25 becoming 30. I do not mind carrying anyone if it's within these reasonable times. But when that 25 minute run becomes 45? Come on.. 25 minutes is not even close to burning through, that's being normal. Burning through is me taking another SMN, a WAR tank and a WHM like-minded friends and we AoE everything to oblivion in as little pulls as possible chained together, aiming for sub-15-minute clears.

And as I said, I play 2 characters, one of them is exclusively a ninja. Unlike my SMN, the ninja won't do near 3k DPS on packs. So on a ninja, I REALLY feel it when the DRG is doing 500 DPS on a pack of 12 mobs when the lowest AoE DPS class in the game (sans paladin) can pull 1800 on 12 mobs in 1.5 minutes. Then on the first boss, the tank engages, and 1 minute into the fight the DRG finally steps in to DPS. Doing his no-rotation skills at random only to die 30 seconds later to the first AoE jammed towards face. Next pack the DRG joined halfway through. Same thing next pack. So my tank friend had it, voted kick, I said yes. Am I elitist for kicking him? No. Was my friend elitist for initiating the vote? no... But the DRG wasn't even trying. He was expecting a carry based on our efforts and didn't even pretend the opposite. THIS is what I'm against. not the guy learning his job, but doing 950 instead of 1400 DPS.

Since I am not imposing my play style on anyone. I also expect no one to impose theirs on me. Again, I'm not expecting max efficiency where everyone does 1400+ DPS all the time. Heck, even I can't do that, and I like to consider myself good though not the best, never mind expect it of others. But I expect everyone to at least try and finish the dungeon without messing up everything. Heck, use your abilities wrong, that IS better than not using half the things on your hotbar. At least let me know you're trying because I am.

[Derio]

As long as it doesnt destroy the game like DCUO did with their scoreboard for pve.

[Phoenicia]

As long as it doesnt destroy the game like DCUO did with their scoreboard for pve.

That depends mainly on what is being graded and how rewards (if any) are given. Just because 1 game failed at something doesn't mean it will fail on every other game. There are far too many variables to a gaim's failure or success.



Take Tera for example, it had a few "graded" instances where the higher the score the better the reward. However, the grade was a team total grade, not personal. The reward was given to everyone in party. While this DID kind of pushed a level of elitism among the community while recruiting members. Recruitment messages mainly were along the lines of "So and so A rank group. Experience required".

Now Tera wasn't the best MMO in the market. Didn't even get close. And its community went into the gutter when it went F2P. And it wasn't because of its grading system of 3 or 4 instances out of 18. It was because when bad players played bad everyone else "felt" it. That game is kind of harder. Being F2P brought all kinds of people to play. There are other reasons, but again, not the topic of this thread.

Let's face it, this game is ALREADY PLAGUED with "elitism" based on ilv alone. Have you ever been in ilv100 Leviathan groups that require linking TWO items because 1 wasn't enough? Leviathan didn't even drop ilv100 (it was 90 or with mirror for 95). What is funnier, they would kick you if you said "I do not have a levi weapon anymore, but I can play my class. Here is my High Allagan WeaponS" <- Plural. I rejoined, linked a Ramuh item and said "You can't fight Ramuh if you don't kill Levi. Is that okay?". Funny thing? After the kill, 3 people were still on the raft while the rest were swimming. And the party leader wasn't on the raft.

Same with Thordan Ex and PF asking for 205 parties when required is 195. I personally healed the fight on my ilv191 scholar (cheating with accessories to enter, but my FC knew that.)

Which brings us back to setting a standard of what a "skilled" player is. Just because you're ilv 209 does not mean you're better than everyone who is 208. Have you seen the tanks that deliberately lower their ilv using penta-melded ilv 150 accessories? Those tanks WILL outperform ANY ilv210 tank. In both aspects, mitigation AND offense. Even if the 210 beats them in 1 aspect, it would be not by much, and with sacrificing a lot of the other aspect. Tank performance, however, is a whole different topic outside the scope of this thread.

A personal scoreboard that you view at the end of the dungeon as you leave the instance hurts no one. You know you performed well for whatever reason but the score was low? Well tough luck, the "in your 'elitist' opinion" reason of the low score is long gone from the instance and you can't even harass them. You think you didn't perform as you should and you got a low score because of it? Well, no one can harass you now because you both left the instance! But if your score is low EVERY time? It can't be everyone else ALL the time. You would have to be the reason.

Now just because someone cleared all the dungeons up to expert roulette doesn't make them good. Scoring a D- everytime they roll will let THEM know that they aren't good enough. And if they can't figure out by themselves at this point that as a BLM you use fire to do damage and then ice to recover MP (Sorry I keep bring BLM up, it is imo the easiest class to pick up even though it is among the hardest to master), you NEED someone else's help. If you would feel offended when someone gives advice, read a guide or watch a video. Do something, just do not expect everyone to be nice.

[Andrea]

That depends mainly on what is being graded and how rewards (if any) are given. Just because 1 game failed at something doesn't mean it will fail on every other game.

I feel bonus tomes would be a good reward.

It would help those who want to just cap eso for the week and forget about roulettes to do so quicker and they would be encouraged to do better in dungeons to get said reward.

Its also a reward that if you are learning you wouldn't be overly worried you miss out on.

[OranKells]

tanks and healers would excluded from these rewards since in dungeons there is only one of them. Also dps while important is not the singular measure of skill. Should they get points for doing max dps but refusing to step out of the heavily telegraphed attacks? do bards get extra points for using foe to boost a blm/smns attack? would an ast get points for getting lucky and drawing nothing but the balance out for a dungeon?