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  1. #11
    Player
    Phoenicia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Idling in Idle-shire
    Posts
    748
    Character
    Naomi Enami
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Azazua_azura View Post
    Snip.
    I understand where you're coming from. DPS heads can be annoying. Those that think tanks, healers and everyone and their mom should focus on how to do more DPS regardless of the encounter are obnoxious and annoying.

    I think your problem is that you are looking at this as an either-or thing. You're either 1 or 0. You probably think if someone is a DPS-meter-supporter, then he definitely is a DPS d***head that expects everyone to do the unrealistic 2k DPS on a fight where the boss spends 90% of the time in the air on a flipping BRD. A bit extreme? Yeah, but that's how it sounds to me when someone says DPS-meters encourages nothing but harassment between the community that is already sickeningly filled with it. This thread and the other one with over 19 pages in this very same forum are living prove of it. And the fact is, not all people giving advice are elitists, and not all people receiving said advice are "getting attacked" or as bad as they are called, but there are legit cases of both ends. In reality, the whole situation is getting blown out of proportions.

    People are looking at only one extreme end when we're complaining about BOTH extreme ends of a huge spectrum. Yes, I am talking about the end where the person doesn't even bother pressing the button with the flashing square. The one that if you suggest to them nicely ANYTHING on improving themselves, they come here on the forums and fill the threads with posts of how everyone else is an elitist and that they are "just fine" because they killed Sastasha at level 16. Again, I'm being a bit extreme here, but I want the picture to get through.

    You, my friend, lie somewhere in between, probably VERY close to the middle. A pretty good place to be in to be honest. You want smooth runs. You want to make everyone's job easier, resulting in a better overall team experience. You don't want to drag your team down, and you don't wanna be told that you are dragging the team down when you really aren't. But that's the thing, most of us want JUST that. You see, though, our problem is not the wide range inside the spectrum, though. Our problem is not the nice guy who is decent enough at his job, and is decent enough and patient enough to give advice. Our problem is not the new person who doesn't know his job but is willing to listen to that guy. Our problem isn't the veteran player that is trying an entirely new role and is not performing as they should. Our problem is the jerk at the very top that thinks he's entitled to tell everyone how to play (including the nice patient decent guy) and the other jerk at the very bottom that thinks he's also entitled to play however the f*** he wants because he pays a sub.

    But why make the one problem at 1 end stop us from getting rid of the other problem at the other end? The elitist that will tell you that you suck will tell you that you suck anyways because he is just the elitist jerk he is. He also is already using a parser and is accusing you of being bad based on it. You probably aren't bad either. You're just doing 1200 (acceptable) instead of 1400 (which he thinks is minimum). So let's set a benchmark that is more indicative than clearing story mode and crafting high quality elm crooks to set the line of being "average" at playing the game. Let everyone see their personal performance at least.

    It's not all negative either. Now if a jerk comes to you and tells you that you suck because you're not doing 4 digits of DPS as an AST on single target (When it's not even possible because lolASTDPS), you just show them that you are doing fine because you are above most lines. e.g. lower than average over-heals (This alone sets a good healer for a bad one imo), 0 party deaths, and an ok 3 figure DPS number. HPS doesn't matter because it only goes up when everyone scrubs it up and takes more damage than they have to. You can use the very tool he's being judgmental with against him.

    Which is what this whole thread is about. Setting an indicative line of where people should be at. Now if people should do 1200 DPS, but this guy is doing 1000-1150? Sure, he's not bad. The other guy is doing 1500? AWSOME all the way from A to E. But if we get a guy who's doing 350?...... And this applied to everyone, not just DPS! Why is the WHM doing 120% overheals by casting cure 2 every time the WAR loses 100 HP? Why is the tank taking too much damage? Why is the tank losing aggro and is doing only 700 TPS (Threat per second)? Why is the tank dying? Is it the healer not healing fast enough? or the tank not using proper CDs and getting 100 to 0? Or the DPS not even bothering so the fight lasts so long the tank runs out of CDs and healer out of MP? Or the healer healing too much with cure 3 and medica 2 that he runs out MP in 30 seconds flat?

    If the blame is gonna happen ANYWAYS, why not seek to blame the right person? Why disband the whole Thordan Ex party or break the static because the party can't meet the DPS check when we can avoid that if we have the proper information that the DRG is not doing well because he's not using heavy thrust? Which then we can point out to the DRG and ask him to improve instead of just kicking him because he won't listen since we have no "proof" of his failure. I find a necessary evil is far better than "just evil lying around".

    Let's take the marking example, I, as someone who plays all roles tank, healer and DPS, don't care about marking. That mainly goes to my experience as a tank. I do not mean to brag, but I have no problems with aggro in general. Mainly because I had a good teacher (my brother), care about gearing my tanks (Yes I play 2 characters and both have decently geared tanks) and know how to use them. So if 2 DPS members full burst 2 different targets, AoE everything or just focus 1 target, I do not lose aggro. But if I do lose aggro and the DPS that is fully bursting non-primary kill target gets it, they no longer can land positionals or cast freely due to interrupts, so they end up with with less DPS, making getting aggro back an easy thing. I just adapt. I only rarely use the #1 marker to mark a target that needs to die fast such as the small bees in the new Arboretum dungeon, which if they don't die they final sting my bum nearly killing me which would make the healer panic and/or just cause my death leading to a wipe on such a huge pack.

    But let's face it, not everyone pays the same attention to game mechanics or gear or their job. There are also those tanks that are overprotective and hate losing control over the fight even if it's not their fault or would cover you even if you don't have aggro. Also those that do not like big packs and like smaller pulls. More importantly, there are those tanks that just aren't confident in their skill and would rather mark a full kill order marking all the way from 1 to 5. Now if I'm a DPS, I respect that kill order. There is no reason not to. I may ask the tank if they want advice or if they mind speeding it up a little or if they wanna know "how" not to make it a problem, but if they say no, I don't go out of my way to "prove a point". And trust me, I'm the stubborn type that LIKES to prove points! It's in the family and we got it from our mother! lol... I mean just look at my walls of text all over the forums!

    But again, I'd like to consider myself somewhere in the middle of the DPS-head spectrum. I care for my DPS, as long as it is not a detriment to the whole group. So you will find me do DPS as a healer. You will also see me dropping tank stance and/or switching to DPS stance if I can squeeze in bursts here and there. And I will intentionally get hit by some AoEs if it doesn't cause high damage (usually using a CD that shrugs it off like Mana wall or ward on BLM or Shade Shift on Ninja) if it means more uptime on the boss. But I will not go out of my way to make the healer spend more GCDs just to heal my bum instead of his personal DPS, or God forbid, stealing the tank's heals. Heck, I don't even ask for Esuna after the zerk's pacification on WAR because that 1 GCD I'm losing is barely worth the healer spending 1 GCD to remove it. (For those DPS-headed WARs out there, a 9 GCD zerk gets you pacified as soon as you invoke the 9th GCD, placing ~2.4 seconds of your pacification into the GCD, so you effectively lose like ~1.1 GCD at most). On my ninja I try my best to boost everyone else's DPS by trick attacking at burst times, I even apply DE for my tank when I have to leave the target if it's not a warrior and I will always keep Goad on CD by pre-emptively buffing people so they don't run out of TP (just not on the bard because I need them to sing for my TP ). On my bard I make sure proper songs are up whenever they're needed. This means I will sing Foe's to boost the casters and healers' DPS, but I will also stop it if I know healers will need MP soon, or melee need TP.

    The above are all examples of team play that prioritize the "our DPS" over "my numbers", mainly via boosting my own DPS and others without hurting mine or others' performances. Again, the SCH and SMN analogy I used before. The SMN casting the physics healing for ~480 so the scholar can cast bio, bio 2, miasma and shadowflare is not team play, it's just stupidly hurting the team, believe it or not. It IS the scholar's job to make sure adequate shielding and healing is happening so they can cast the aforementioned DPS spells, which even at their best would not match the output of the SMN! But when someone dies due to bad stuff, the summoner raising dead people with or without Swiftcast so the SCH can conserve MP and/or focus on healing IS good team play.

    So back to your Feint example on the lancer. Yes it helps the tank by reducing SOME target's damage. But let's think of the trade-offs, that is speaking of what do you "pay" for what you DO gain. In the 4 target example I gave in my earlier post, you're spending 320 TP over 10 seconds to slow 4 targets doing only a total of 480 potency split over 4 different targets (That's 1.5 potency per TP spent) only to find out you need to repeat the process after 10 seconds. Whereas had you spend those 4 GCDs on Doomspike, you would have done a total of 2560 potency split over the 4 targets for twice the TP (640). That's 4 potency per TP spent. Again, things would also die faster, which means the tank spends less CDs on that pack, sparing them more CDs for the next pack, all the while the healers healing less. Which goes back to your purpose, making the fight a smoother experience.

    Ignoring all the DPS values above, let's again look at the ACTUAL gains. You slow mobs so they do less damage.. But what does slowing a mob that already does low damage really benefit the tank with? (Like everything that can be slowed in the low levels really)... Bosses and most boss adds are also immune to the effect.

    Also, I mentioned this before, the slow does not affect the tank-buster moves or frequency of AoEs, the ONLY thing threatening to a tank really is the busters (if those didn't exist, most tanks would probably not even need a healer in party). Even in the hardest of encounters (T13, A4S), boss auto-attack damage is usually shrugged off with just regen and tanks' passive mitigation (be it block/parry or self-heals and drain effects), until the occasional moderate level cleaves and dangerous tank busters happen. The cleaves are there to put the tank at a dangerous level so they die from the busters. That's where healers come in. However, the slow doesn't help on those because it doesn't lower their damage nor changes their timers.

    So on single-target scenarios, you're spending 80TP for 120 potency (1.5 potency per TP) instead of doing your combos which have a massive (probably the highest) damage/TP ratio and speed up a kill.

    You are right though, you should NOT try to skip mechanics if you 'can't'. But if you CAN, why the heck not? Why not burn Ravana without the butterflies becoming swords and make that phase a whole 1.5 minutes shorter? Why not kill Ravana before Swift Liberation entirely? Especially when that is the phase where almost every party gets a hiccup at? If you can push through a phase that stresses the tanks and/or healers by doing more DPS, then why the heck not? Take Thordan Ex for example, near the end there is a knight that spawns and makes the boss immune to damage and people have to switch to him to get his HP low so he doesn't wipe the party... Imagine, just imagine, that if your party pushed 400 more TOTAL DPS, and used LB1 on Thordan himself, they could kill him and not see that knight entirely, whereas they would use LB2 just so that the AoE doesn't kill them and the healers end up healing a metric ton more HP in a phase where they probably won't have the MP because of all the AoE that happened just before. Pushing phases isn't always bad.

    Also you pointed about the tank that tried to "speed run" Halatali normal... I agree with you, it's stupid. I hate it when tanks mega pull mobs thinking they're speeding runs when the only one that has decent AoE sub-30 is the BLM! I had a warrior that chain pulled 5+ mobs in Toto-Rak.. Which was laughable, the WAR spamming Overpower, ARC doing quick noc all over the place, they still did LESS cumulative encounter DPS than my MNK who has absolutely 0 forms of AoE damage at that level. It's pointless to strain the healer just so you can inflate numbers that don't even matter or make sense.

    Long story short, performance pushing is not all bad. Trying to push phase skips is not always bad. Legitimately telling people that they suck when they actually DO suck is not "bad", it's necessary evil. Of course, discretion, respect and politeness should be taken into consideration. DPS meters or server rankings or whatever performance gauging techniques used are not "the evil" just as guns and cars and wine aren't evil. It is the abusers (elitists, murderers, drunk drivers respectively) that are "bad".

    Okay, I dragged on way too long lol. I'm gonna tap out and play the game. Here's hoping I don't get 3 bad DPS out of 2 expert roulette runs.
    (1)
    Last edited by Phoenicia; 01-02-2016 at 08:12 AM.