[Feedback] We need a solution to help players improve... Simple Idea.

[Azazua_azura]

I think this is a poor idea. I'm not talking about whether or not there is a personal parser in the game, or even a optional group parser, I'm talking about the leaderboards, rankings and rewards. This is a cooperative game, not a competitive game. If you start injecting more competition into the game, people will cease cooperating, and start playing the blame game when their numbers are somehow held back by others.

The last thing we need in FFXIV is anything that makes the game itself a competitive environment. In my opinion (and experience) team members who compete with each other, do not cooperate effectively. Because doing so harms their personal ability to compete against the very same people they should cooperate with.

This pretty much,

you guys don't seem to know what other people saying. This idea is no different then every other meter topics, and no offence meters DO NOT HELP being a skilled player means YOU WORK AS A TEAM. i NEVER see people debufing a set of mobs ita rare to see lancers use their slow skill. which does help. its rare to see ppl actually work together, instead you see dps e-peen contests and people witch hunting who they carried. High numbers =/= skill.

[Phoenicia]

its rare to see ppl actually work together, instead you see dps e-peen contests and people witch hunting who they carried. High numbers =/= skill.

While you do have a valid point in numbers =/= skill. I'm not pointing at you in person or anyone here either, but still, every time I see someone opposing performance indicators (Mainly meters, but also rankings? Come on!), I read an underlying: "I'm bad at the game, and I refuse to improve myself even if it's obvious to others that they can point out that I'm bad".

I am not exactly a supporter of parsers. Nor am I a nay-sayer of parses. Yes I do parse, but I forget to turn it on most of the days unless it's a raid day. And when I do, I only look at my personal numbers and where do I fall among the others. Or in the case of raids, I look at where our raid DPS is. Rarely would I look at others' numbers in specific unless it's "eye-catching" (i.e. 1600+ single target bard or sub 350 dragoon) and even then rarely would I point that out unless it's someone I know and run often with... Usually for advice I could benefit from. The good bard will probably know he's good, so I don't need to compliment him. And the 350 DRG is probably AFK and not reading the chat log anyways. So why bother?

I agree with you, mentoring and community networking would be GREAT! Specially when Square-enix succeeded in this before. Remember in FFXI where mentoring was awesome? Also remember parties in Valkurm Dunes and Yuhtunga Jungle actually taking the time to help you learn (not gonna use "teach you") how to play your job? Yes, VD was NOTORIOUS for its "noobs". But that never stopped us from going through it and learning job basics in there. But the problem isn't SE.. It is the consumer (player in this case). Don't get me wrong, I've had my share of nice players that didn't mind showing me the right steps (even though I'd like to consider myself a decent player that spends time reading the tooltips, experimenting and then checking guides. Heck! The striking dummy probably has my name on it because of how many hours I spend beating on it with every job I have).

But the real problem is not that people aren't willing to help. It is that EVERY TIME someone actually helps, they get shut out, called elitists for it. Just like how I posted on the other thread in these forums, every time I try to "mentor", and I like to think of myself as a nice person who tries to be VERY nice and subtle at giving advice, I get shut out. I once told a BLM it is better to use Fire 1 instead of Fire 2 when fighting 2 targets because you end up casting 2 more Fires, spending more time in AF3, having higher chances of getting procs and resulting in more overall encounter DPS. His reply? "You're not my real dad! You don't tell me how to live my life!" and to "Stuff myself". Another case I told a tank to move back right after the AoE marker disappears and the mob/boss is locked in animation so that the mobs don't spin around, I got told that he needs to dodge AoEs (as if I asked him to get hit) and that I seemed to have no idea how to tank... Which is hilarious considering beating every encounter in 2.xx before overgearing or it getting nerfed. My reaction? "Lol!" and let it slide. Then I come to the forums and see these very same people complaining on the forums why everyone is such an elitist jerk.

Warning: This post will probably get a wee bit technical.... Also kinda ranty lol.

You see, the thing is, a bad tank is obvious, he loses aggro and/or dies to busters. A bad healer is also obvious, he lets people die after extended time of no healing even though they were low health, or the opposite, spamming his biggest heal causing an over 80% over healing. And the in between that can't really stance switch to help with DPS and would just stand there throwing a heal every once in a while.

But DPS? It's harder to see who's under performing. Why? A good tank and healer will probably do their job! If not, the other DPS will carry him. The only way to have an obvious DPS problem is to have BOTH DPS (or all 4 in 8 mans) to underperform and you see that you're not cutting DPS checks or things take years to die.

Another thing, when a DPS fails... it is only the DPS failing, when a tank dies? Things get messy. When a healer dies.... RIP everyone. Heck, when DPS fails, and boss gets angry, healer runs out of MP from a fight that never ended, then tank dies... Said "failing DPS" can get away by pointing at the healer or tank and say "You died!" or "You took too much damage the healer ran out of MP because of it!" ad nauseam. You see, in a team game where EVEN the DPS have a role to fulfill, we need indicators of who's not fulfilling their role! This game has no means of telling us how HALF the party is doing other than "how fast do things die!"

Do not get me wrong, yes, numbers are NOT the only indicative that you are good. Doing 2k DPS for 10 seconds and then face planting the whole rest of the 10 minute fight is not being good. But then again, this very same DPS will drop as the encounter goes on. Since 20,000 damage (in case you missed it: 2000 Damage per second x 10 seconds = 20,000 damage total) over 10 minutes is only 33.3 DPS. Now what do you think of a guy doing 33 DPS over an encounter?

While only numerical values on their own don't mean jack, together with other information is an indicative of a player's skill... or lack of, anyways.

Yes, people don't use debuffs "anymore", true. but there are valid underlying reasons that aren't DPS related: Let's take your lancer example.

1- The skill costs 80TP. When every class runs into TP issues based on encounter, why add an unnecessary strain on your TP?
2- The status effects have diminishing returns. If the slow lasts 15s, the next one will last only 7. The next one will last 3s. So if you apply and reapply, you would have spent 24% of your total TP just to slow ONE enemy for 25s.
3- Slow only affects auto-attacks and some spell casts, the first is considered "fluff" damage. In most cases (even A4S), fluff damage is handled with fairy heals and regen effects. Along with the tank's natural passive mitigation (PLD shield and/or Parry) or HPS (bloodbath/Souleater/Inner beast/Storm Path). Also the tank-damaging "busters" and AoE moves are on a static CDs unaffected by slow effects.
4- Most bosses (anything that is worth slowing really) are immune to the slow effect.
5- There are other jobs that are actually better than DRG/LNC at applying the same effect..... On EVERYTHING, indefinitely without diminishing returns. A.k.a. Shadowflare from the ACN based jobs. You talk about teamwork? Let the job that does something better than you do it.
6- While at it, why not? The skill interrupts combos (DPS loss!), the skill does low damage (DPS loss!!), and running out of TP means you just stand there and look pretty... or ugly, depends on taste really. (*gasp* DPS loss!!). On a job whose main (and only) role is DPS? That's B. A. D. (Specially when DRG had 0 support until Battle Litany came into play).

The VERY same applies to PLD's stun. Except PLD's stun-lock lasts only 10s, costs 36% of your TP instead and costs you WAY more in terms of aggro/DPS from the dropped GCDs and lack of TP 1 whole minute earlier than normal. Not to mention, PLD also happens to be the tank already with the lowest DPS and aggro. But the funny thing is, every other melee (DPS and tanks), 2 of the SMN pets and MCH can stun with a free oGCD ability that is on a relatively short CD (20-ish seconds). So why have the PLD stun if the WAR, DRK, MNK, DRG, NIN, MCH, Ifrit-Egi, and Titan-Egi (but no one should care about Titan egi) can do the same thing for free? And with that many options, what are the odds of NOT having one of those? THIS is also sign of "teamwork" and "good play". Similar to why have a scholar silence with Selene (and her delay) when the BRD, MCH and ninja are MUCH better at silencing with must less animation delay?

But I agree, as a PLD, it is VERY good play to drop your halone combo (or perhaps stop for 1 GCD after a combo) to stun a very dangerous AoE move if no one else can do it. Remember Chimera for a relic reborn?

Again, just because you have an ability, doesn't mean you gotta use it. Just because Summoner can Physic doesn't mean SMN should drop ruins to cast it while SCH is applying DoTs and Shadowflare. The SCH should instead Adlo the tank and then apply DoTs and SF then heal. if MORE healing is required, it doesn't fall down to the SMN dropping ruins, but to the SCH not applying DoTs and do his primary role of healing instead. Again, team play.

However, in the same SCH and SMN example above: tank dies (probably because the SCH forgot he's not the SMN or the tank being bad and not using a CD while not having Grit up and in STR gear), mobs run to the scholar, THEN summoner should drop everything and raise tank and maybe use Eye for an Eye on the SCH (since SCH can't E4E himself) while scholar heals himself so they don't die while the tank gets back up and picks the mob again...... Good team play!

So we go back to what each class does, DPS should do most DPS they can, tanks should generate most aggro they can (usually generating most DPS in the process) and healers should keep everyone alive and DPSing when they don't need to heal helps. And what better than numeric values to show how well each is doing? DPS has to do more damage, in this game, damage is calculated by numbers. Even if it weren't, you will start to say "stuff dies faster", But time is measured by numbers too! But instead of higher number is better in case of DPS, lower number is better in case of kill time.

The problem isn't really the meters, the problem is people stroking e-peens over their personal DPS over team DPS. For example: A double ninja team with 1 ninja using Sneak Attack instead during the Trick Attack of the other ninja to boost his personal DPS over Trick Attacking at the end or after the other Ninja to prolong the vulnerability debuff and increasing EVERYONE's DPS. But that's not the problem of the meters, that's the problem of the community egoes.

If you think DPS meters are bad, you are wrongly blaming the tools. This is very similar to blaming guns (not the gunner) and cars (not drunk drivers) for killing people.

I agree with you, numbers =/= skill. Numbers aren't everything. And "optimal" DPS on a striking dummy is not valid for all fights. Doing 1800 as a BLM in Ravana is viable, especially if you destroy Ravana during the damage up phase and you skip the damage down buff phases (this probably means you're with a party of MAD DPS skills). Also doing 2000+ in A2S as SMN is "good" (some do 2.5k+). But expecting a ninja to do the same DPS as SMN in there is foolishness. Doing 1800 in A4S with current gear is probably not possible. Heck 1350 in there is probably DANG GOOD. I think all the DPS meter naySayers assume that everyone expects them to pull the 1600 dummy parse from them in Titan Ex or Bismarck Ex, fights that are known for their bad down times, when most of the yay-sayers want is an indicative to their performance against most others in the same fight. (Which is what the OP is basically suggesting).

Again, we have far more problems with bad players than not doing passable DPS. We have tanks that forget they are there to tank and pretend to be DPS by dropping Grit/Defiance, refuse to attack the proper kill target order, and then die to the first final sting in the level 35 dungeon Temple of Qarn and then rage quitting on the group. We also have the opposite end of this spectrum that think by flashing, casting stoneskin and surviving damage is all they need to do as tanks. The difference is one is trying too hard to be something he's not.. And the other is trying too hard to be something he should be, but is doing it wrong.

Then we also have that BLM that did a 2500 opener and died after right before he cast his first Blizzard 3 because he was too infatuated with his DPS rather than dodge the attack that killed him or at least use the proper tools the BLM has (Manaward and wall) and then blaming the tank and/or healers for not saving his bum because he can do 2500 DPS for a whole 25 seconds. Then we have the DPS that does sub-600 (which I cannot fathom how they can pull it off without literally going AFK and/or dying) and then tell you they're good just because they survived the encounter and the encounter died (while you did all the work).

In both above examples, the first cases are "probably" encouraged by caring about DPS meters too much, the second however are encourage by NOT caring about the DPS meter at all. By why are we talking ONLY about the extremes? When there is a whole spectrum of in between?

Also, "elitist" and "bad players" have become relative terms. Because there is no "set standard" to performance in this game, almost anyone performing below the average of the people someone knows is considered bad, and anyone playing "better" pointing out your "relative under-performance" is considered an elitist jerk. But let's face it, if I keep a circle of top tier players, I will see that 1400 as a DPS average (which the DPS-headed WAR in my static can do) and see anything below 1200 as "bad". When realistically, only optimized played and geared warriors can reach said numbers.

However, if the game had a ranking system per encounter/dungeon where it shows average numbers (at least data-center wide to accommodate for lag and play times?), we can have a more clear-cut line of where the mean is and where to expect people to be. As I said earlier, it is unrealistic to expect a ninja to do 2500 AoE DPS when AoE DPS is not its aly. This is SPECIALLY good when it's something only YOU can see after said encounter or dungeon is cleared. So even if I parse others to see something the game doesn't intend me to see (like their DPS), knowing the average DPS of a specific class in an encounter will help reduce the prejudice against the player. Since it will be obvious that a certain class can't perform as well as others in said encounters. Again, the SMN example in A2S against every other job really. However, this is not going to help against the class prejudice if a specific class underperforms because of certain mechanics sadly.. *cough*PLD in savage*cough*. But hey! It's a step forward in the right direction.

Also regardless of meters, elitists aren't rampant just because of DPS meters. It really is not hard to see if the other player is underperforming when you see a

• BLM never popping Enochian (or even worse, never casting fire spells!!!!?... Yeah, I had that.. A level 52 BLM even!) Not to mention my favorite, BLMs that cast Freeze and ONLY Freeze in AoE.
• It's not hard to see when a MNK not paying attention to ANY positionals... Or even worse, spamming ONLY Bootshine!
• It is also not hard to not miss the VERY cool and obvious (and no need to mention LOUD sound effect that accompanies the) animation of Blood of the Dragons and a DRG is NOT using it.
• As a healer, it is not hard to see that even though the tank is taking 0 damage the first half of a big pack pull, then he starts getting DESTROYED because he ran out of CDs and you run out of MP heal bombing him while 90% of the pack is still alive! A case where the tank or healer end up blamed (as mentioned earlier in this post).
• As a tank, you can see when you're not doing aggro combos and still see the DPS miles behind you on aggro. Yes, there are aggro dumps and reducing moves, but come on, those have CDs and don't last forever.

Elitists are only "obvious" and obnoxious because the other end of the spectrum is also very "rampant". I speak from experience as someone who does 2 expert roulette runs almost per day, I end up with at least 1 bad DPS each run. I can't speak much for tanks since both runs I run with my pocket tank <3. But I have also seen a good share of terrible healers. I just happen to not point out and just carry them. Specially on Phoenicia (since as a SMN or BLM I can get away with doing over 2k AoE DPS and just think of it as a 2 ninja run lol). But when I'm on my ninja... I feed terrible when I end up with a 350 DPS dragoon.

"Mentoring", and other "social" and network" solutions, are not perfect since not everyone wants to be mentored and not everyone mentoring is good. So what if I get someone that never wanted to be mentored, or was mentored wrong, yet plays like a disabled frog that pressed keys with 1 finger and had a total of 1 and a half brain cell functioning? And when I tell them nicely that option A is better than B in their rotation, I end up called an elitist? Then that very same person coming to the forums ranting a wall of text as big as this one about me being the "elitist" and he never improves because of the like-minded community members support him? Yes, I just suck it up and move on. Which is what we do now.

However, set a SOLID CLEAR-CUT LINE of where the average play should be, and it will be clear to THAT person that they are not doing as well as they think they are. When a dungeon clear time is 10 minutes longer than average while no one had to take a bathroom or any other emergency breaks? We have a problem. When a SMN or BLM doing over 700 DPS less than the average in an AoE encounter? We have a problem. When the tank has 3 deaths more than the average tank death in an encounter? We have problem! Not only that, but this problem CAN be pointed out! And no one passing the blame, wrongly, to others! And NO ONE in the room can ignore the big elephant in it.

Yes, there will be negatives, after all, the blame will probably still be there. But let us not ignore the positives. At least, the proper person/people will be blamed. Not the healer for running out of MP after a 20 minute fight (or the laughable 5 DPS party blaming the solo tank for his low DPS when they failed to meet the DPS check. When all the tank did was compensate for the longer encounter by turtling harder than they normally should).

Another positive is we will know if the failing is due mechanics fails, or a #gitgud case!

After all, it is just information - It is up to the individual who interprets those numbers and put them to use.

In the end I got a question for you : If you are confident with your DPS and you have indeed the numbers to back it up, what will be the problem for you?

It is not about it just being information. The main elephant in the room is people "getting away" and calling any advice to them as the advisor being an elitist and then never improving because they're doing "just fine" because they cleared story mode x or y content. But when there is a clear-cut line of average performance, which by the way will also be low since a lot of players are also bad, no one can just be "ignorant" when they know they can't even stand or float in the swimming pool they're jumping in.

TL;DR: Bad players have no excuse to be bad. People should STOP being insecure about being bad. They should accept criticism. In the end, this is only a game, if you're not serious enough to perform your best, why get serious about someone pointing you out for being bad at it? DPS meters may not be the best solution, but a solution nonetheless.

[Shurrikhan]

<Seriously solid stuff>

This. In my case a lot of this is exactly why I support parsers, personal if not group. You should know when you're under-performing. Sadly, that only fixes roughly half of the problem, though the awareness parsers provide, in combination with clear speed, is almost entirely linked with the second half.

Too many people do not understand the idea of tracking other party members' abilities or raid dps. Gear, skill, and CDs determine kill speed. Party composition and mob output vs. party output determine kill spread. In the end, numbers may not be a complete indicator of individual and party skill (the dps numbers of that AoEer padding by letting mobs linger at 10% rather than just killing it and reducing tank damage taken by ~1/n are still being carried by healer and tank, who are usually losing proportionate or greater dps to support that if mass-DoTs aren't able to be maintained or tank stance dropped)--but instance clear time is always thus representative. Always.

The thing is there's a fair portion of people who don't really seem to think about how to clear an area quickly, how to maximize their party potential. Sometimes this is because they lack the incentive; there are plenty who simply don't like looking for maximization in the few ways that XIV offers proof thereof. But in many other cases it's because, having gotten use to under-performing even in an individual aspect, they lack the vantage point by which to even start that step, be it through speedrunning or just being really damn competent in general. And that's what's really sad to me. It's like a good portion of the game is just going unseen. And half of that is simply because there's a world of numbers under the game, which parsers alone cannot reveal but they can at least make you much more aware of, that just goes by the wayside while they spam certain rotations for ease or aesthetics, either incidentally or purposely unaware that it doesn't line up with the gameplay that everyone else is going through, and leaving them, too, eventually by the wayside. Getting a new ability should be exciting. Mastering it should be exciting. It shouldn't be something that you take off your bars because it confused you the first time you used it (e.g. Gauss Barrel, Wanderer's Minuet, Blood of the Dragon, Enochian). Of course, all but the mastery portion should be clear without parsers, but with parsers--and with some manner of training via revised job quests, improved guildhests, new adventurer training halls, or whatever else to think in a raid dps-oriented manner--it all couldn't be clearer.