[Feedback] We need a solution to help players improve... Simple Idea.

[Purrfectstorm]

My suggestion is to make it so you have to get good to earn the best rewards. Tome and raid gear are too close and content is nerfed too fast. I really like that there is an unsynced option. We should rely on higher levels and better gear to beat content eventually not taking away mechanics so the content can be beaten a month later (e.g. Steps of Faith). Right now there just isn't much motivation to try to improve or tackle harder content.

[myahele]

I think the rankings in the end of every PvP game is a nice start and easy to implement into DF dungeons/ trials (hopefully)

It shows alot of info like total damage given/received. As well as kill rate and healing given/received.

Although, the mentor system should probably help somewhat. As well as the beginner's hall.

[Xanikk999]

We need dps meters.

It's hard to see if you are doing anything wrong if you can't judge your damage against someone elses.

[Azazua_azura]

We need dps meters.

It's hard to see if you are doing anything wrong if you can't judge your damage against someone elses.

Battle log

Click self

Click party

Turn off mob

There you go...

Why do people get gear though? for bigger numbers
Why do people use buffs and skills? for bigger numbers.
Why do people do the mechanics of a fight? to stay alive and continue getting numbers.

Literally everything we do in this game during combat is for either bigger numbers or to stay alive for, yes, numbers.

Also the battle log as it stands is a horrible way of calculating DPS. people aren't expecting savage dps numbers.

That's not always true, for me I upgrade my gear to survive better

I use my buffs to kill a mob/boss faster then it can kill me.

I dodge aoe to survive longer, I do other boss mechanics to weaken n the boss, to kill it faster.


And how is the battle log bad??? That is what a dps meter would use, that is what parser currently use. All parser dons average out the damage done into a easier to read number.

@ pho

Thing is, you are coming off as an elitist in some points, first of all you're assuming my thoughts/ opinions. All I'm doing is being honest, not everyone plays for big numbers. And we do have the battle log, it shows you what skills and buffs players use. If you see someone not using certain skills, or certain buffs you can OFFER advice.

Thing is you should NEVER shove advice down someone's throat, its not always about being attacked, but its seen as being rude.

RL example: you are shopping for food and you see a disabled person shop, you would automatically help? Or would you ask

In most cases people would think you helping them is condescending, or patronizing.


Same can be said for people playing games, some people have fun figuring out for themselves instead of asking for help. They want to be stronger for it, and proud that they did figure it out for ourselves.

Only exception is if the run is going bad, and you're wiping. You can communicate questions like

"can you please use flash more? You're doing good but keep losing agro on this"

If the run is going well, why say anything?? I think this mentality of " getting carried" is going to far.


And, I don't care if people use a meter or not, that has never been an issue with me. What people are failing to consider is things are ok ATM, because only a select group current are illegally, using one.

Having one built in the game means everyone will hive access to it, and not everyone will be chill about it.

My thing is, every "my suggestion to help the player base" is always a parser/ meter. I think as a forum we should come up with more then that, as there other stuff outside meters that can help.


It bothers me a bit that people can't look past that, and keep suggesting it.


Meters don't always help, not everyone cares how much damage they do, as long as they use their skills, update their gear, and stuff dies their content.


And it helps to not assume the stance of others, I never assumed all pro dps meter are rude, or want top dps.

Also to clarafy i have all my numbers turned off due to clutter/ doesn't help me. I'm VERY bad at math, and tend to think I'm reading a forgien langue when i try to read numerical values. I'm much better in measurements, and percentagages.

[Solarra]

My thing is, every "my suggestion to help the player base" is always a parser/ meter. I think as a forum we should come up with more then that, as there other stuff outside meters that can help.

It bothers me a bit that people can't look past that, and keep suggesting it.

I guess it's the appeal of a quick fix. A personal parser would help people gauge their own performance and I'm all for it. However, it's not going to magically make everyone into better players. As Azazua_Azazua said, there is more to being a good player than topping meters.

It's a tool, nothing more. I can see why they are useful for statics tackling end-game but a lot of people do not know how to read them properly or fail to understand how the mechanics of different fights will affect the results.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

Battle Log is cluttered and hard to read. Removing mobs and/or party members beats the purpose. What parsers/meters do is convey the same information via graphs and tables making life a LOT easier to find what damage is outgoing or incoming, how many attacks you're missing. You said you're bad at math? Parsers do it for you. All you do with a parser is check the Player/enemy raw, go to desired column (misses), you find DRG with 24 misses over 3 minutes, BAM! "Issue" figured out. "DRG, please use accuracy gear/food, thanks <3".

I only ever used parsers because my brother asked me to because he used to raid lead in SCoB and FCoB. Spending hours looking at cluttered information on the log and manually doing math does not help anyone. Having an app that does it for you and represents it in tables, pie and bar charts does. And we're not talking about who does the biggest number. We are talking about who can meet the minimum 1000 DPS requirement. And who is doing more so others can afford to do less. If we have a 1.6k DPS monk, we can tell the bard the sing more so the healers can heal more. Or if everyone is doing 1.3k+ then we can tell the tanks to spend MORE time in their respective tank stances or healers to heal more instead of DPS more. But not only that, we can also see who is taking damage from what and if that is totally avoidable or not. We can also see who's missing attacks, who's not landing positionals, who's not applying buffs/debuffs, we can see damage type whether it's magical or physical so we use proper mitigation tools. all these "good play" elements you yourself speak of.

And trust me Azazua, I would NOT give advice if the run was going smooth. Why would I tell a tank I do not know to flash more if when he flashes once he holds aggro from everyone? But that doesn't mean I have to wait for a wipe to tell the PLD to flash more because I'm healing EVERYONE except the PLD either. Just because "I" could carry the tank through healing doesn't mean I should let the PLD stand pretty while I tank 3 mobs and the DRG and MNK tank 1 each doing sub-optimal DPS because they can't land positionals and stuff end up taking FAR longer than they should be dying, making everyone's life miserable, well, except for the PLD. Only to have the PLD get the exp and tomes WE worked harder that we should for because of him. I WILL tell the paladin to flash more. I WILL tell the DPS/Tank to get out of AoEs. I WILL teach the party what mechanics they fail at and how to deal with them. I WILL sugar coat it as "advice" as much as possible. But if advice makes me an elitist, so be it. Let us be honest, do not expect me to watch out for everyone's feelings. As a matter of fact, I am doing 3/7/23 people a favor (myself included) by playing the "bad cop" role and voicing what the 3/7/23 of us think. The people in question need to stop being baby girls.

Your disabled person analogy just doesn't apply here. Disabled people are 99.99999% not disabled because they want to be. They didn't go "it's my life and I live it how I want" => *Chop leg/arm off*. Something was forced on them. Call it fate, karma, luck, accident, whatever you believe in, but that's life. They were dealt a bad card. But they didn't choose to cripple themselves. Quite the opposite, they went to the store to buy their needs. Proving they're TRYING THEIR BEST. Heck, the only thing that goes through my mind when I see one is respect. I move on. If I see them stumble or struggle, I may "offer" help or bring them to the attention of those whose job is to help them.

Now let's look at Mr. 350-DPS-Because-I-Pay-My-Sub-I-Play-How-I-Want! or Ms. I-can't-hold-hate-because-what-is-tank? Fate, karma, luck, whatever you or they believe in, has NOTHING to do with it. They CHOSE to not read their tooltips. They CHOSE to not care about what skills do or how they work. They CHOSE to be bad. And by telling you off because they don't want their baby-girl-sensitive-feels hurt, they enforced THEIR choice to be bad on the 3/7/23 others in their group. Which is more rude?

Here is a better analogy: Car parking lot at an apartments building. You have 12 apartments, 12 spots. This guy comes in, parks his car "wrong" taking 2 spots. Is it "rude" to tell him not to take other people's spots? Heck, I consider it rude to park more than one car (In case you own more than 1) in the building's lot. And anyone doing ANYTHING to convey that massage is NOT rude. Maybe taking a knife and ruining the car's paint is. But leaving a note isn't... Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the person in question repeats it and the others in the building just take extreme measures such as toll the car out or the landlord/lady kicks him out and not rent him anymore. (Akin to kicking the "bad" player from group).

Snip

This entire thread is NOT about DPS-meters though.. It is about a solution that is NOT a DPS meter. It is but a grading system after the run that shows performance based on role. What all naySayers did in reaction, however, was lump this solution WITH DPS-meters.

[RickXRolled]

What's funny is bad players seemingly don't care about their dps at all, yet they want the best shinies because it makes them stronger. Basically they are saying:"I don't care about my damage, but I want to do more damage".

Learning how to play boosts their dps from 400 to 1000-1300, they don't want that.
Getting better gear boosts their dps from 400 to 420, they feel stronger!

Humans are truly illogical creatures.

[MeiUshu]

My suggestion is to make it so you have to get good to earn the best rewards. Tome and raid gear are too close and content is nerfed too fast. I really like that there is an unsynced option. We should rely on higher levels and better gear to beat content eventually not taking away mechanics so the content can be beaten a month later (e.g. Steps of Faith). Right now there just isn't much motivation to try to improve or tackle harder content.

what you say is kind of contradictory though. You like there is an unsyc way, which means people dont need to get good as you want them to become because of the unsync thing. The only way to improve is to fail more then not, do it over and over and over, and fail repeatedly until you get it right, that is valid in any place, any work anywhere. The unsync doesnt require this, is just a smash fest because new players are just taken through this by elder players. Those new players dont need to think or even attempt to be good it is finished before they started.

The unsync is just silly and shouldnt be there, if peopel want their horse, just go sync and do it as it should...that will help improve the players and of course the overall attitude of the players towards those that learn needs to be far better as is today. Someone fails because he doesnt know and paff he is kicked..how is he going to improve ?

Seriously, either you want all knowing players even before they play or you understand that not everybody is good perfect and godly in wha they do.

[Phoenicia]

Someone fails because he doesnt know and paff he is kicked..how is he going to improve ?

Here is the thing though, when you want to learn, you join a learning group. Not a farming one.

Like in RL, when you want to become a doctor, you don't just take a scalpel and chop your sick brother to fix him, you go to med school and learn first. You don't just take a screwdriver and dismantle a company's server when you don't even know anything about IT and that screwdrivers have VERY little to do with it, you go to tech school. etc.

So if you do not even know what a buff does? Join or start a group of similarly experienced people. If someone with experience wants to help? Sure, why not? But do not join a group of 7 others that want to and can kill Turn 9 or Thordan Ex multiple times and expect them to carry you when you don't even know that the purple/green markers mean get away from everyone or, and here's the catch, YOU KILL THEM!

EDIT: Before anyone assumes I promote segregation between people that can kill and can't or that I'm of any form of "elitism".... What I mean is be respectful of other people's times and expectations. I am all for helping people learn. I do a lot of hand holding when I'm not progressing. But I fully understand that when people want to "farm", they expect people with similar experience.

For example, if it is Monday and weekly reset is tomorrow, I expect to "kill" A2S on that party finder that said "kill group", not spend 5 hours and not get a kill. Come Tuesday, I don't care since I have six other days to get my kill. And who knows? I might get it on Tuesday and just do something else. Disclaimer: I have a static already on A4S, this was just an example of why I would expect a kill and not hold hands through.