[Feedback] We need a solution to help players improve... Simple Idea.

[Azazua_azura]

I agree with you 100%
I think the notable difference in the performance of JP groups compared to EU/NA at endgame reflects this. NA and to a lesser extent, EU culture promotes individuality and competition.

This

killing the mobs faster also helps the tank get hit less. trust me, i wish the dps would just finish off those low hp mobs in big pulls so i have less strain when healing the tank. no amount of slow is helping me keep that tank up. what are you doing with feint anyways? hit every mob, then cycle through the mobs again with feint making sure it doesnt fall off while your dps partner pushes numbers making up for the ones youre lacking? thats not team play, thats dumping your load on another

and this is a good example of why i am not fond of the NA community.

First of the rude assumption, then the rude commenting.



to reply that is deffinately not how i play, I do >heavy thrust >slow each mob > attack the mob the tank is focusing on.
If the dps is only dpsing I think ythey are soloing, just trying to get high dps numbers. I also hate the mentality of mechanic skipping, it's confusing, and people try to do it on all bosses, even ones where you can't.

to me damage is damage faint deals a good base dmg. and a decent slow, coupled that with shadow flare, tank has an easier time tanking and healer doesn't need to cure as often allowing them to add dmg into the mix.

I think any person who only uses 10% of skills, isn't a good player as their not playing a job to the fullest extent.

I also hate the assumptuion of big pulls. The final straw of of me leaving the NA community was my hatalia run as a healer.

I was a lvl 23/24 healer it was leveling roulette the tank was ima assume level 60 i never checked but ihey was in high end gear. I told the party I was there for exp.

the tank said nothing, and pulled pretty much everything at the start, i couldn't keep up with heals and our arn got aggro by a bomb. the tank dies and forget who else. I said what the heck you doing, and the tank said "this is what i normally do" i tried to be nice and say "you coulda asked, this is df you don't know who you get" The arn pretty much said" stop bitchin strt grinding" i said i didn't realise trying to communicate was called bitchin" the other dps did the good ole tried and tested WoW remark of "omg qqmoar". They pulled and i pretty much was spamming the <leave> button.


This is the dungeon report that lead to me asking about the housing resale question.

anyway ya, to sum it up, it takes more then high numbers to be a good player, using team promoted skills like slow, stun. blind sleep etc does help, simply killing faster can make doing a role hard like a fresh tank vs higher geared/level dps, can't tell u how often i lost hate in the starter dungeons simply cuz i didn't get a chance to get hate on mobs before a dps attacks and throttles, much worst is when dps are not attacking the same mob.


heck ppl complain about mob marking in alot of cases eoither if you do or don't which is confusing.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

I understand where you're coming from. DPS heads can be annoying. Those that think tanks, healers and everyone and their mom should focus on how to do more DPS regardless of the encounter are obnoxious and annoying.

I think your problem is that you are looking at this as an either-or thing. You're either 1 or 0. You probably think if someone is a DPS-meter-supporter, then he definitely is a DPS d***head that expects everyone to do the unrealistic 2k DPS on a fight where the boss spends 90% of the time in the air on a flipping BRD. A bit extreme? Yeah, but that's how it sounds to me when someone says DPS-meters encourages nothing but harassment between the community that is already sickeningly filled with it. This thread and the other one with over 19 pages in this very same forum are living prove of it. And the fact is, not all people giving advice are elitists, and not all people receiving said advice are "getting attacked" or as bad as they are called, but there are legit cases of both ends. In reality, the whole situation is getting blown out of proportions.

People are looking at only one extreme end when we're complaining about BOTH extreme ends of a huge spectrum. Yes, I am talking about the end where the person doesn't even bother pressing the button with the flashing square. The one that if you suggest to them nicely ANYTHING on improving themselves, they come here on the forums and fill the threads with posts of how everyone else is an elitist and that they are "just fine" because they killed Sastasha at level 16. Again, I'm being a bit extreme here, but I want the picture to get through.

You, my friend, lie somewhere in between, probably VERY close to the middle. A pretty good place to be in to be honest. You want smooth runs. You want to make everyone's job easier, resulting in a better overall team experience. You don't want to drag your team down, and you don't wanna be told that you are dragging the team down when you really aren't. But that's the thing, most of us want JUST that. You see, though, our problem is not the wide range inside the spectrum, though. Our problem is not the nice guy who is decent enough at his job, and is decent enough and patient enough to give advice. Our problem is not the new person who doesn't know his job but is willing to listen to that guy. Our problem isn't the veteran player that is trying an entirely new role and is not performing as they should. Our problem is the jerk at the very top that thinks he's entitled to tell everyone how to play (including the nice patient decent guy) and the other jerk at the very bottom that thinks he's also entitled to play however the f*** he wants because he pays a sub.

But why make the one problem at 1 end stop us from getting rid of the other problem at the other end? The elitist that will tell you that you suck will tell you that you suck anyways because he is just the elitist jerk he is. He also is already using a parser and is accusing you of being bad based on it. You probably aren't bad either. You're just doing 1200 (acceptable) instead of 1400 (which he thinks is minimum). So let's set a benchmark that is more indicative than clearing story mode and crafting high quality elm crooks to set the line of being "average" at playing the game. Let everyone see their personal performance at least.

It's not all negative either. Now if a jerk comes to you and tells you that you suck because you're not doing 4 digits of DPS as an AST on single target (When it's not even possible because lolASTDPS), you just show them that you are doing fine because you are above most lines. e.g. lower than average over-heals (This alone sets a good healer for a bad one imo), 0 party deaths, and an ok 3 figure DPS number. HPS doesn't matter because it only goes up when everyone scrubs it up and takes more damage than they have to. You can use the very tool he's being judgmental with against him.

Which is what this whole thread is about. Setting an indicative line of where people should be at. Now if people should do 1200 DPS, but this guy is doing 1000-1150? Sure, he's not bad. The other guy is doing 1500? AWSOME all the way from A to E. But if we get a guy who's doing 350?...... And this applied to everyone, not just DPS! Why is the WHM doing 120% overheals by casting cure 2 every time the WAR loses 100 HP? Why is the tank taking too much damage? Why is the tank losing aggro and is doing only 700 TPS (Threat per second)? Why is the tank dying? Is it the healer not healing fast enough? or the tank not using proper CDs and getting 100 to 0? Or the DPS not even bothering so the fight lasts so long the tank runs out of CDs and healer out of MP? Or the healer healing too much with cure 3 and medica 2 that he runs out MP in 30 seconds flat?

If the blame is gonna happen ANYWAYS, why not seek to blame the right person? Why disband the whole Thordan Ex party or break the static because the party can't meet the DPS check when we can avoid that if we have the proper information that the DRG is not doing well because he's not using heavy thrust? Which then we can point out to the DRG and ask him to improve instead of just kicking him because he won't listen since we have no "proof" of his failure. I find a necessary evil is far better than "just evil lying around".

Let's take the marking example, I, as someone who plays all roles tank, healer and DPS, don't care about marking. That mainly goes to my experience as a tank. I do not mean to brag, but I have no problems with aggro in general. Mainly because I had a good teacher (my brother), care about gearing my tanks (Yes I play 2 characters and both have decently geared tanks) and know how to use them. So if 2 DPS members full burst 2 different targets, AoE everything or just focus 1 target, I do not lose aggro. But if I do lose aggro and the DPS that is fully bursting non-primary kill target gets it, they no longer can land positionals or cast freely due to interrupts, so they end up with with less DPS, making getting aggro back an easy thing. I just adapt. I only rarely use the #1 marker to mark a target that needs to die fast such as the small bees in the new Arboretum dungeon, which if they don't die they final sting my bum nearly killing me which would make the healer panic and/or just cause my death leading to a wipe on such a huge pack.

But let's face it, not everyone pays the same attention to game mechanics or gear or their job. There are also those tanks that are overprotective and hate losing control over the fight even if it's not their fault or would cover you even if you don't have aggro. Also those that do not like big packs and like smaller pulls. More importantly, there are those tanks that just aren't confident in their skill and would rather mark a full kill order marking all the way from 1 to 5. Now if I'm a DPS, I respect that kill order. There is no reason not to. I may ask the tank if they want advice or if they mind speeding it up a little or if they wanna know "how" not to make it a problem, but if they say no, I don't go out of my way to "prove a point". And trust me, I'm the stubborn type that LIKES to prove points! It's in the family and we got it from our mother! lol... I mean just look at my walls of text all over the forums!

But again, I'd like to consider myself somewhere in the middle of the DPS-head spectrum. I care for my DPS, as long as it is not a detriment to the whole group. So you will find me do DPS as a healer. You will also see me dropping tank stance and/or switching to DPS stance if I can squeeze in bursts here and there. And I will intentionally get hit by some AoEs if it doesn't cause high damage (usually using a CD that shrugs it off like Mana wall or ward on BLM or Shade Shift on Ninja) if it means more uptime on the boss. But I will not go out of my way to make the healer spend more GCDs just to heal my bum instead of his personal DPS, or God forbid, stealing the tank's heals. Heck, I don't even ask for Esuna after the zerk's pacification on WAR because that 1 GCD I'm losing is barely worth the healer spending 1 GCD to remove it. (For those DPS-headed WARs out there, a 9 GCD zerk gets you pacified as soon as you invoke the 9th GCD, placing ~2.4 seconds of your pacification into the GCD, so you effectively lose like ~1.1 GCD at most). On my ninja I try my best to boost everyone else's DPS by trick attacking at burst times, I even apply DE for my tank when I have to leave the target if it's not a warrior and I will always keep Goad on CD by pre-emptively buffing people so they don't run out of TP (just not on the bard because I need them to sing for my TP ). On my bard I make sure proper songs are up whenever they're needed. This means I will sing Foe's to boost the casters and healers' DPS, but I will also stop it if I know healers will need MP soon, or melee need TP.

The above are all examples of team play that prioritize the "our DPS" over "my numbers", mainly via boosting my own DPS and others without hurting mine or others' performances. Again, the SCH and SMN analogy I used before. The SMN casting the physics healing for ~480 so the scholar can cast bio, bio 2, miasma and shadowflare is not team play, it's just stupidly hurting the team, believe it or not. It IS the scholar's job to make sure adequate shielding and healing is happening so they can cast the aforementioned DPS spells, which even at their best would not match the output of the SMN! But when someone dies due to bad stuff, the summoner raising dead people with or without Swiftcast so the SCH can conserve MP and/or focus on healing IS good team play.

So back to your Feint example on the lancer. Yes it helps the tank by reducing SOME target's damage. But let's think of the trade-offs, that is speaking of what do you "pay" for what you DO gain. In the 4 target example I gave in my earlier post, you're spending 320 TP over 10 seconds to slow 4 targets doing only a total of 480 potency split over 4 different targets (That's 1.5 potency per TP spent) only to find out you need to repeat the process after 10 seconds. Whereas had you spend those 4 GCDs on Doomspike, you would have done a total of 2560 potency split over the 4 targets for twice the TP (640). That's 4 potency per TP spent. Again, things would also die faster, which means the tank spends less CDs on that pack, sparing them more CDs for the next pack, all the while the healers healing less. Which goes back to your purpose, making the fight a smoother experience.

Ignoring all the DPS values above, let's again look at the ACTUAL gains. You slow mobs so they do less damage.. But what does slowing a mob that already does low damage really benefit the tank with? (Like everything that can be slowed in the low levels really)... Bosses and most boss adds are also immune to the effect.

Also, I mentioned this before, the slow does not affect the tank-buster moves or frequency of AoEs, the ONLY thing threatening to a tank really is the busters (if those didn't exist, most tanks would probably not even need a healer in party). Even in the hardest of encounters (T13, A4S), boss auto-attack damage is usually shrugged off with just regen and tanks' passive mitigation (be it block/parry or self-heals and drain effects), until the occasional moderate level cleaves and dangerous tank busters happen. The cleaves are there to put the tank at a dangerous level so they die from the busters. That's where healers come in. However, the slow doesn't help on those because it doesn't lower their damage nor changes their timers.

So on single-target scenarios, you're spending 80TP for 120 potency (1.5 potency per TP) instead of doing your combos which have a massive (probably the highest) damage/TP ratio and speed up a kill.

You are right though, you should NOT try to skip mechanics if you 'can't'. But if you CAN, why the heck not? Why not burn Ravana without the butterflies becoming swords and make that phase a whole 1.5 minutes shorter? Why not kill Ravana before Swift Liberation entirely? Especially when that is the phase where almost every party gets a hiccup at? If you can push through a phase that stresses the tanks and/or healers by doing more DPS, then why the heck not? Take Thordan Ex for example, near the end there is a knight that spawns and makes the boss immune to damage and people have to switch to him to get his HP low so he doesn't wipe the party... Imagine, just imagine, that if your party pushed 400 more TOTAL DPS, and used LB1 on Thordan himself, they could kill him and not see that knight entirely, whereas they would use LB2 just so that the AoE doesn't kill them and the healers end up healing a metric ton more HP in a phase where they probably won't have the MP because of all the AoE that happened just before. Pushing phases isn't always bad.

Also you pointed about the tank that tried to "speed run" Halatali normal... I agree with you, it's stupid. I hate it when tanks mega pull mobs thinking they're speeding runs when the only one that has decent AoE sub-30 is the BLM! I had a warrior that chain pulled 5+ mobs in Toto-Rak.. Which was laughable, the WAR spamming Overpower, ARC doing quick noc all over the place, they still did LESS cumulative encounter DPS than my MNK who has absolutely 0 forms of AoE damage at that level. It's pointless to strain the healer just so you can inflate numbers that don't even matter or make sense.

Long story short, performance pushing is not all bad. Trying to push phase skips is not always bad. Legitimately telling people that they suck when they actually DO suck is not "bad", it's necessary evil. Of course, discretion, respect and politeness should be taken into consideration. DPS meters or server rankings or whatever performance gauging techniques used are not "the evil" just as guns and cars and wine aren't evil. It is the abusers (elitists, murderers, drunk drivers respectively) that are "bad".

Okay, I dragged on way too long lol. I'm gonna tap out and play the game. Here's hoping I don't get 3 bad DPS out of 2 expert roulette runs.

[Andrea]

Stuff

I wont say the game 100% needs parsers. The game does however need something to tell you if you are doing pretty bad dps. As it is now I've seen quite a few people respond to helpful advice with negativity and telling people they pay so they'll play how they like. Some simply wont trust other people because they will just think, nah I clear that stuff I must be good, they must be lying to me.

Also with the way this game is set up numbers is all that really matters in this game come 60 for combat.

[Azazua_azura]

I wont say the game 100% needs parsers. The game does however need something to tell you if you are doing pretty bad dps. As it is now I've seen quite a few people respond to helpful advice with negativity and telling people they pay so they'll play how they like. Some simply wont trust other people because they will just think, nah I clear that stuff I must be good, they must be lying to me.

Also with the way this game is set up numbers is all that really matters in this game come 60 for combat.

thats really only the na/eu mentality not so much the jp mentality. Gear is what gets you numbers, using buffs and skills well makes you a skilled player. And trust me been there done that with lvl 60 content just not alexs savage. This not my first character or account.

no game needs a parser no game needs a tool to give you number ratio on dmg.

if u care about numbers there is a text battle log for you and party for the chat box. if people are hitting with low numbers it stands to reason that their adverage dps is low. but ppl complain about it even though its what parser use to do the math for u.

[Andrea]

thats really only the na/eu mebtality not so much the jp mentality. Gear is what gets you numbers, using buffs and skills well makes you a skilled player. And trust me been there done that with lvl 60 content just not alexs savage. This not my first character or account.

Why do people get gear though? for bigger numbers
Why do people use buffs and skills? for bigger numbers.
Why do people do the mechanics of a fight? to stay alive and continue getting numbers.

Literally everything we do in this game during combat is for either bigger numbers or to stay alive for, yes, numbers.

Also the battlelog as it stands is a horrible way of calculating DPS. people aren't expecting savage dps numbers.

[Shurrikhan]

<Seriously solid stuff>

This. In my case a lot of this is exactly why I support parsers, personal if not group. You should know when you're under-performing. Sadly, that only fixes roughly half of the problem, though the awareness parsers provide, in combination with clear speed, is almost entirely linked with the second half.

Too many people do not understand the idea of tracking other party members' abilities or raid dps. Gear, skill, and CDs determine kill speed. Party composition and mob output vs. party output determine kill spread. In the end, numbers may not be a complete indicator of individual and party skill (the dps numbers of that AoEer padding by letting mobs linger at 10% rather than just killing it and reducing tank damage taken by ~1/n are still being carried by healer and tank, who are usually losing proportionate or greater dps to support that if mass-DoTs aren't able to be maintained or tank stance dropped)--but instance clear time is always thus representative. Always.

The thing is there's a fair portion of people who don't really seem to think about how to clear an area quickly, how to maximize their party potential. Sometimes this is because they lack the incentive; there are plenty who simply don't like looking for maximization in the few ways that XIV offers proof thereof. But in many other cases it's because, having gotten use to under-performing even in an individual aspect, they lack the vantage point by which to even start that step, be it through speedrunning or just being really damn competent in general. And that's what's really sad to me. It's like a good portion of the game is just going unseen. And half of that is simply because there's a world of numbers under the game, which parsers alone cannot reveal but they can at least make you much more aware of, that just goes by the wayside while they spam certain rotations for ease or aesthetics, either incidentally or purposely unaware that it doesn't line up with the gameplay that everyone else is going through, and leaving them, too, eventually by the wayside. Getting a new ability should be exciting. Mastering it should be exciting. It shouldn't be something that you take off your bars because it confused you the first time you used it (e.g. Gauss Barrel, Wanderer's Minuet, Blood of the Dragon, Enochian). Of course, all but the mastery portion should be clear without parsers, but with parsers--and with some manner of training via revised job quests, improved guildhests, new adventurer training halls, or whatever else to think in a raid dps-oriented manner--it all couldn't be clearer.

[StriderShinryu]

If nothing else, I think this sort of in game grading system would remove the human element of the equation. And I think we can all agree that it's the human element that causes most of the problems. Both people with the view that "you're doing it wrong" when maybe you really aren't for the level of content you're doing and people with the view that "I'm doing it right" when it could fairly easily be done better end up lost in mixed messages and missed communication with the way things currently are.

At least if it was the game itself that said "Hey, you got a B grade here. Maybe you can do better." it would be a completely objective way for the message to be put across. There's no room there for people to get hurt feelings over nothing or for someone to be an elitist jerk for no reason. Of course, this would also require some sort of quality training tools in game (maybe even mandatory every 5 levels or so as part of class quest progression) to back this up so that players aren't expected to go outside of the game and basically do homework.

[Xanikk999]

We need dps meters.

It's hard to see if you are doing anything wrong if you can't judge your damage against someone elses.

[Belhi]

Well at least we will be getting these graded dummies and the Hall of Novices. Even if it isn't a complete fix to the issue its at least ground work that can be tweeked or expanded on to improve teaching people to play effectively.

[Azazua_azura]

We need dps meters.

It's hard to see if you are doing anything wrong if you can't judge your damage against someone elses.

Battle log

Click self

Click party

Turn off mob

There you go...

Why do people get gear though? for bigger numbers
Why do people use buffs and skills? for bigger numbers.
Why do people do the mechanics of a fight? to stay alive and continue getting numbers.

Literally everything we do in this game during combat is for either bigger numbers or to stay alive for, yes, numbers.

Also the battle log as it stands is a horrible way of calculating DPS. people aren't expecting savage dps numbers.

That's not always true, for me I upgrade my gear to survive better

I use my buffs to kill a mob/boss faster then it can kill me.

I dodge aoe to survive longer, I do other boss mechanics to weaken n the boss, to kill it faster.


And how is the battle log bad??? That is what a dps meter would use, that is what parser currently use. All parser dons average out the damage done into a easier to read number.

@ pho

Thing is, you are coming off as an elitist in some points, first of all you're assuming my thoughts/ opinions. All I'm doing is being honest, not everyone plays for big numbers. And we do have the battle log, it shows you what skills and buffs players use. If you see someone not using certain skills, or certain buffs you can OFFER advice.

Thing is you should NEVER shove advice down someone's throat, its not always about being attacked, but its seen as being rude.

RL example: you are shopping for food and you see a disabled person shop, you would automatically help? Or would you ask

In most cases people would think you helping them is condescending, or patronizing.


Same can be said for people playing games, some people have fun figuring out for themselves instead of asking for help. They want to be stronger for it, and proud that they did figure it out for ourselves.

Only exception is if the run is going bad, and you're wiping. You can communicate questions like

"can you please use flash more? You're doing good but keep losing agro on this"

If the run is going well, why say anything?? I think this mentality of " getting carried" is going to far.


And, I don't care if people use a meter or not, that has never been an issue with me. What people are failing to consider is things are ok ATM, because only a select group current are illegally, using one.

Having one built in the game means everyone will hive access to it, and not everyone will be chill about it.

My thing is, every "my suggestion to help the player base" is always a parser/ meter. I think as a forum we should come up with more then that, as there other stuff outside meters that can help.


It bothers me a bit that people can't look past that, and keep suggesting it.


Meters don't always help, not everyone cares how much damage they do, as long as they use their skills, update their gear, and stuff dies their content.


And it helps to not assume the stance of others, I never assumed all pro dps meter are rude, or want top dps.

Also to clarafy i have all my numbers turned off due to clutter/ doesn't help me. I'm VERY bad at math, and tend to think I'm reading a forgien langue when i try to read numerical values. I'm much better in measurements, and percentagages.