[Feedback] We need a solution to help players improve... Simple Idea.

[Kallera]

tanks and healers would excluded from these rewards since in dungeons there is only one of them. Also dps while important is not the singular measure of skill. Should they get points for doing max dps but refusing to step out of the heavily telegraphed attacks? do bards get extra points for using foe to boost a blm/smns attack? would an ast get points for getting lucky and drawing nothing but the balance out for a dungeon?

Don't they already have a monopoly of the adventurer in need bonus?

[OranKells]

they do but honestly you don't think you won't see wars spamming felt cleave and healers in cleric stance trying to compete and probably wrecking the dungeon in the process?

[SpookyGhost]

I think that you could still work with a DPS threshold requirement per encounter for healers/tanks - healers would need to be way low as the "average" (since you have to go out of your way for DPS and things can easily go wrong), but tanks can be a bit higher. I think encouraging everyone to consider their DPS contribution is a good thing since the game is built that way in general, everyone can contribute some amount of group DPS. Gauging eHPS and damage mitigation runs into way more caveats than simple DPS would. I've actually thought about OP's idea a long time ago and was planning to post a concept thread for it, but OP's pretty much covered all the bases. My idea was that each encounter rewarded tokens based on your DPS contribution (bronze = average, silver = good, gold = great, platinum = high score for that encounter) with unique glamour/items available for each token set. You'd get your tokens at the end of the dungeon and if you have enough of a certain set then you can go to the Golden Saucer or something and exchange them for the stuff you want. Rotate in different glamour/items every patch to keep it fresh so that people keep aiming for high scores.

I dunno. I think there are certainly flaws with the idea of a score system and you'd probably need to fine tune a lot of things to get it to stick but it'd make things more competitive and fun. People often see competition as a hindrance, but (at least with my system) you'd only be really competing with other people at the Platinum tier, and that competition will help players improve - those who are uninterested are already uninterested so nothing would change for them.

[Phoenicia]

The grading doesn't have to measure DPS or set DPS thresholds tbh. Even if it were on DPS. Higher encounter DPS can ONLY happen through good play. It doesn't matter if you do 4k DPS in 5 seconds (Which is easy when you crit Fire IV or Fell Cleave twice in a row) and then die. Because 20k damage over 3 minutes is 110-ish DPS, which is bad in all considerations.

I said it before, individual grading should be based on the major but simplistic things. For example:

DPS: Positive grades: Total Damage. Encounter DPS average. Party damage contribution (aka Trick attack and Foe). Maybe include eHPS?
Negative grades: Damage taken. Deaths.

Healers: Positive: Total Damage. Total Effective Healing. Party Damage Contribution. Total Shielding and/or damage mitigation. Party raises.
Negative: Party deaths. Own deaths. Over healing.

Tanks: Positive: Total Damage/Enmity. Mitigated Damage. Total Effective Healing. Party Damage Contribution. Party damage mitigation.
Negative: Party deaths. Own deaths.

Group Overall: +ve: Clear time. -ve: Wipes.

Voila, we have a grading system that isn't based on DPS. It promotes teamwork since the others' performance will result in better grades for you. And it also promotes good individual play.

Rewards can be anything that doesn't "hurt" not to have. Tomestones/Experience bonuses so you worry less about running roulettes? Nice. Tokens so you can get vanity? Not bad. As long as it doesn't hurt the game echo system.

[Azazua_azura]

The grading doesn't have to measure DPS or set DPS thresholds tbh. Even if it were on DPS. Higher encounter DPS can ONLY happen through good play. It doesn't matter if you do 4k DPS in 5 seconds (Which is easy when you crit Fire IV or Fell Cleave twice in a row) and then die. Because 20k damage over 3 minutes is 110-ish DPS, which is bad in all considerations.

I said it before, individual grading should be based on the major but simplistic things. For example:

DPS: Positive grades: Total Damage. Encounter DPS average. Party damage contribution (aka Trick attack and Foe). Maybe include eHPS?
Negative grades: Damage taken. Deaths.

Healers: Positive: Total Damage. Total Effective Healing. Party Damage Contribution. Total Shielding and/or damage mitigation. Party raises.
Negative: Party deaths. Own deaths. Over healing.

Tanks: Positive: Total Damage/Enmity. Mitigated Damage. Total Effective Healing. Party Damage Contribution. Party damage mitigation.
Negative: Party deaths. Own deaths.

Group Overall: +ve: Clear time. -ve: Wipes.

Voila, we have a grading system that isn't based on DPS. It promotes teamwork since the others' performance will result in better grades for you. And it also promotes good individual play.

Rewards can be anything that doesn't "hurt" not to have. Tomestones/Experience bonuses so you worry less about running roulettes? Nice. Tokens so you can get vanity? Not bad. As long as it doesn't hurt the game echo system.

This I can get behind


This idea to me promotes learning vs dps maxing

Max dps mostly comes from gear but also mastering content.

[Delmontyb]

I hope we never get meters. Or if we do it is only for your own personal character's performance. I dont want to deal with the e-peen strokers telling me, or anyone else in the party how to do their jobs because their meter says something.

Meter-readers tend to use it purely for numbers, but also tend to not take into account all actions of the fight. I played wow, I raided, and I can tell you a lot of my non-raiding friends used meters, and would yell at 'scrubs' who had low numbers and one day I had enough and called them out over Ventrillo about it.

If this is in reply to the topic at hand, this isn't about meters in the game, but more of a ranking score based off of job performance, and displaying this information to you at the end of a run. This would be personal info, so others couldn't see it to reduce any want to grief others based off their performance. .

[Delmontyb]

Why not have some special 'Ex' dungeon to act as gate for the new primal? For Thordan it would have been the Vault EX. Just up the numbers, reduce trash and add new mechanics to Bosses and big adds like ponies and Knights. Bonus points if said mechanics give you a clue about what awaits you in Thordan EX.
If they feel super generous the can even add ilvl 195 versions of Vault gear on weekly lockout so you are encouraged to come back.
BÄM fun content with 'little' work from Dev side.

I like this idea, I don't like how they call "hard mode" dungeons "hard" as they are different dungeons all together, but bumping up the difficultly of the dungeons as they exist now would be awesome. Anyway, that's just IMO. I'd also like more 8 man dungeons, but that's just me and a topic for another day.

[Delmontyb]

The grading doesn't have to measure DPS or set DPS thresholds tbh. Even if it were on DPS. Higher encounter DPS can ONLY happen through good play. It doesn't matter if you do 4k DPS in 5 seconds (Which is easy when you crit Fire IV or Fell Cleave twice in a row) and then die. Because 20k damage over 3 minutes is 110-ish DPS, which is bad in all considerations.

Fantastic, better said then me. It doesn't all have to be focused on DPS, I love how you broke it down in positive and negative. - Going to add this to the original post - quoted of course.

[MeiUshu]

My suggestion is to make it so you have to get good to earn the best rewards. Tome and raid gear are too close and content is nerfed too fast. I really like that there is an unsynced option. We should rely on higher levels and better gear to beat content eventually not taking away mechanics so the content can be beaten a month later (e.g. Steps of Faith). Right now there just isn't much motivation to try to improve or tackle harder content.

what you say is kind of contradictory though. You like there is an unsyc way, which means people dont need to get good as you want them to become because of the unsync thing. The only way to improve is to fail more then not, do it over and over and over, and fail repeatedly until you get it right, that is valid in any place, any work anywhere. The unsync doesnt require this, is just a smash fest because new players are just taken through this by elder players. Those new players dont need to think or even attempt to be good it is finished before they started.

The unsync is just silly and shouldnt be there, if peopel want their horse, just go sync and do it as it should...that will help improve the players and of course the overall attitude of the players towards those that learn needs to be far better as is today. Someone fails because he doesnt know and paff he is kicked..how is he going to improve ?

Seriously, either you want all knowing players even before they play or you understand that not everybody is good perfect and godly in wha they do.

[Phoenicia]

Someone fails because he doesnt know and paff he is kicked..how is he going to improve ?

Here is the thing though, when you want to learn, you join a learning group. Not a farming one.

Like in RL, when you want to become a doctor, you don't just take a scalpel and chop your sick brother to fix him, you go to med school and learn first. You don't just take a screwdriver and dismantle a company's server when you don't even know anything about IT and that screwdrivers have VERY little to do with it, you go to tech school. etc.

So if you do not even know what a buff does? Join or start a group of similarly experienced people. If someone with experience wants to help? Sure, why not? But do not join a group of 7 others that want to and can kill Turn 9 or Thordan Ex multiple times and expect them to carry you when you don't even know that the purple/green markers mean get away from everyone or, and here's the catch, YOU KILL THEM!

EDIT: Before anyone assumes I promote segregation between people that can kill and can't or that I'm of any form of "elitism".... What I mean is be respectful of other people's times and expectations. I am all for helping people learn. I do a lot of hand holding when I'm not progressing. But I fully understand that when people want to "farm", they expect people with similar experience.

For example, if it is Monday and weekly reset is tomorrow, I expect to "kill" A2S on that party finder that said "kill group", not spend 5 hours and not get a kill. Come Tuesday, I don't care since I have six other days to get my kill. And who knows? I might get it on Tuesday and just do something else. Disclaimer: I have a static already on A4S, this was just an example of why I would expect a kill and not hold hands through.