FFXIV is in a Prime Position to Make Some Drastic Changes

[Roth_Trailfinder]

I want to use an example of why I think this topic is important: Red Mage.

We all want it. Yoshida even teased us with the idea this past Rising. After thinking about it though, I wonder how it could even function in this current system...

Now, I've thought long and hard about how it *could* work, but I want to focus on one point, that Red Mage is really supposed to be a swiss-army knife class, say like Druid in WoW, and such like it. But such a class only works in a system with horizontal progression, where you can modify/self-personalize your job's path. We don't currently have that...how's that going to work?!

RDM could work, in terms of being a blend of WHM and BLM, able to use medium weight weapons and armor. Jack of all trades, yes - but MASTER OF NONE.

It would not be able to heal as well as a Healing job. It would not tank as well as a Tank job. ITs DPS output would be comparable to, but lower than, a Bard.

The thing that makes it generally unworkable, in my mind, is not a question of what abilities it has. Its not a question of how well a hybrid job works in vertical progression (it can work very well). Rather, it's a question of queues.

What would a RDM queue as? Healer? Who would want a RDM healer over a WHM, SCH, or AST, when those three are designed to be better healers? Tank? Similar question with PLD, DRK, WAR. DPS? Lol?

Vertical progression is a good thing. Horizontal, not so much. The main issue I see is the difference between acquisition rate and provision rate. How quickly is new power offered to the player base, compared to how quickly does the player base seize that new power?

FF14 is one of the fastest games I've ever played, in terms of gaining player power. That is both a blessing and a curse. It helps keep people interested (no one wants to grind for 10 hours only to gain 4% of a level) but it gets people to max, bored and gone, that much faster. The only real solution is to add more power at a higher rate, to try to keep people interested. This whole thing about "horizontal progression" (as far as I can tell) is less about providing options than it is about sneaking in more player power when SE is determined to adhere to its own schedule that gets people bored. A new ability is going to add to that job's power in some way shape or form - give people a choice of two such ways and they will invariably choose the one that offers the greatest vertical advantage.

[BlatantPyre]

RDM could work <...> Jack of all trades, yes - but MASTER OF NONE <...> The thing that makes it generally unworkable, in my mind, is not a question of what abilities it has <...> it's a question of queues.

What would a RDM queue as? Healer? <...> Tank? <...> DPS?

Vertical progression is a good thing. Horizontal, not so much. <and then everything else he said that was spot on>

You read my mind, man.

The biggest problem I noticed too was if they introduced a job that wasn't locked into the role system, how would the queue work as it is now? I thought breaking the vertical progression would begin to help address it, but I've since changed my mind. I had a thought about having it queue untethered to any specific role, then as the roles were gradually filled it would close the gap...i don't know now though, maybe. It would always either be tank or heals, and honestly I didn't really see RDM as a tank, more in line with DRG (access to better armor than other dps) but with the capacity to be a healer. I ALSO thought about it having some Mystic Knight mechanics...you know, attributing BLM spells into a rune blade, allowing for elemental damage on top of harder hits...and give me chain spell...

Anyway, I'm excited for it nonetheless, I was just pondering how it would fit in.

[Shurrikhan]

The biggest problem I noticed too was if they introduced a job that wasn't locked into the role system, how would the queue work as it is now? I thought breaking the vertical progression would begin to help address it, but I've since changed my mind. I had a thought about having it queue untethered to any specific role, then as the roles were gradually filled it would close the gap...i don't know now though, maybe. It would always either be tank or heals, and honestly I didn't really see RDM as a tank, more in line with DRG (access to better armor than other dps) but with the capacity to be a healer. I ALSO thought about it having some Mystic Knight mechanics...you know, attributing BLM spells into a rune blade, allowing for elemental damage on top of harder hits...and give me chain spell...

Anyway, I'm excited for it nonetheless, I was just pondering how it would fit in.

Yeah, this is what gets me, too, about RDM, though I'm not sure it'd be such a big deal insofar as how it would queue--more, that it would have to pick one role to queue as, and that most parties would have to hinge its use on a particular use rather than making the best use of all three combined roles. Ideally, I'd want it to be something outside the role system, but in reality it's more likely going to be able to qualify for only one role at a time, likely gearing for healer, tank, or dps, and queueing accordingly. That said, even without gearing for the particular role, it could easily just pick a role in the meaning not of limited capability (after all, our tanks and healers can both DPS significantly enough) but of intention to fulfilling its obligations (keeping the party alive when healing, holding aggro as necessary when tanking), noting that whatever else they might contribute they can and most likely will be kicked if they do not perform the role they signed on as, just like any bad role-locked tank, healer, or dps.

[RiceisNice]

The biggest problem I noticed too was if they introduced a job that wasn't locked into the role system....

There's no unwritten rule that RDM has to be a support, or jack-of-all, though. Everyone dork knight as a dps job, but it seems to fit the tanking role jsut fine, provided they have been given the tools for such. FFXIV has done pretty well as far as taking concepts from the FF series and molding it into something that works in an MMO setting, BLMwith the astral/umbral mechanic for example. It clearly doesnt play as a traditional FF blackmage, but at hte same time draws from it's concept of having a wide pletioria of elemental spells and make it work without the elemental wheel (which is typically an extremely limiting factor in any MMO game)

[Shurrikhan]

There's no unwritten rule that RDM has to be a support, or jack-of-all, though. Everyone dork knight as a dps job, but it seems to fit the tanking role just fine, provided they have been given the tools for such. FFXIV has done pretty well as far as taking concepts from the FF series and molding it into something that works in an MMO setting, BLM with the astral/umbral mechanic for example. It clearly doesnt play as a traditional FF blackmage, but at the same time draws from it's concept of having a wide plethora of elemental spells and make it work without the elemental wheel (which is typically an extremely limiting factor in any MMO game)

I guess what's being mused about then isn't so much a class that has things in common with the RDM, but the iconic hybrid niche that RDM has happened to fill.

We basically can get another class with weapon enchants, mixed melee and spell-casting, and maybe even a single-target Refresh, any day. My tank can wear a shiny red coat and hat. Monks have the Red Thief set which looks pretty close... But a real hybrid, that's the real rarity that I think a lot of people would like to see pulled off, though preferably with one the best dressed and most iconic jobs to meet that description.

[Alahra]

There's no unwritten rule that RDM has to be a support, or jack-of-all, though.

Indeed--honestly, RDM's identity isn't particularly concrete across the various FF titles. While it always has melee, black magic, and white magic, there have only been a couple of the titles where it's actually been notably good at all three things at once. In terms of hitting all three of those bases, I suspect tank is actually the easiest fit for FFXIV's current paradigm (black magic for ranged/AoE threat stuff, white magic for self-heals/defensive cooldowns [like Phalanx/Stoneskin/Blink from FFXI], and then tanks are naturally in melee). But they could just as easily minimize the melee aspect, too, and make it a healer, since they already have both offensive and defensive magic (healer doesn't even necessarily preclude melee, but given their penchant for raid mechanics that make healers stay away from the group, that might get kind of messy).

What I don't see RDM being is a straight DPS, though (unless perhaps they do some sort of split-job thing like SMN/SCH--but that's highly unlikely).

[Shurrikhan]

I want to use an example of why I think this topic is important: Red Mage.

We all want it. Yoshida even teased us with the idea this past Rising. After thinking about it though, I wonder how it could even function in this current system...

Now, I've thought long and hard about how it *could* work, but I want to focus on one point, that Red Mage is really supposed to be a swiss-army knife class, say like Druid in WoW, and such like it. But such a class only works in a system with horizontal progression, where you can modify/self-personalize your job's path. We don't currently have that...how's that going to work?!

To be honest, I don't see why horizontal progression would be required beyond the obvious--different (healer, tank, and DPS) gear sets. Naturally, if it could do everything with the same set of gear (tank, heal, and DPS), then it would give it an overwhelming advantage in flexibly gearing up compared to gearing one job of each type. But being gear-locked into a particular role is as close as horizontal progression really has to being relevant here. (At best that gear-locking occurs more subtly, such as for ideal secondary stats for a particular role or two, while the primary stats are already shared among all roles.)

To take the druid example further, a druid has only ever really been, in practice, as much a swiss army knife as a (Wrath) Blood Death Knight or Retribution Paladin. Once gear- and talent-locked, they perform a particular role very clearly, and the hybrid flavor of the class only shows through off-role procs, be it Predatory Swiftness (for Healing Touch) or Art of War / Eternal Flame (on Ret). (Feral previously being mostly shared gear- and especially talent-wise was the closest they've gotten to being truly hybrid (particularly with its self-healing benefits and caster/cat/bear synergy), though again almost identical in that aspect to Blood DK.) Horizontal progression really has surprisingly little to do with "hybrid" functionality. And of course, it doesn't help that talents do not progress beyond the level cap, where you will undoubtedly spend the majority of your time anyways... Doesn't really warrant the term "progression", when it doesn't progress. (Gear did, but mostly vertically. Key stats, mixed with tier artifact gear bonuses allowed for new rotations and priorities, but not that they were scarcely more multi-stated even back in Wrath than we are here in XIV. They simply had far more rotational matters dependant on secondary stats and managed each tier to get enough of said stats to slightly adjust gameplay, capping crit chance (75%) with their crit specs by the end of the expansion, while we'll likely never exceed 45%. A vertical difference, not horizontal. And a difference in ability/passives design.)

Edit: Don't get me wrong; I like the idea of horizontal progression. I just don't like seeing the idea of it misplaced / mis-attributed.

[Whocareswhatmynameis]

All the games you mentioned. ESO, GW2, SWOTOR, and Wildstar have had less success than FF14..... People begged the devs to make the game quicker and easier and now they are bored. New players are still having fun. It's the old saying "Be careful what you wish for, cuz you just might get it"

[BlatantPyre]

All the games you mentioned. ESO, GW2, SWOTOR, and Wildstar have had less success than FF14..... People begged the devs to make the game quicker and easier and now they are bored. New players are still having fun. It's the old saying "Be careful what you wish for, cuz you just might get it"

<sigh>...that wasn't his point. He even pretty much said so. He was merely showing examples of other systems so that any Devs who read this might have something to compare to. I don't believe Pride's asking for a direct rip-off, quite the contrary...

[Kallera]

All the games you mentioned. ESO, GW2, SWOTOR, and Wildstar have had less success than FF14..... People begged the devs to make the game quicker and easier and now they are bored. New players are still having fun. It's the old saying "Be careful what you wish for, cuz you just might get it"

SE needs to find something that sticks because the df tome race is wearing thin on more and more people each patch.