"Changing Tank Damage Calculation"

[Iagainsti]

4. The community just won't care because doing More damage > taking less damage

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Doing more damage = taking less damage

[Shinkyo]

What the stat actually is (parry/vit/#of mininons) I don’t care, so long as I atleast have the option to put this on right side gear.
Come 3.2 I will stack as much of my damage stat as possible. My game play will not change, I will still be as aggressive as I can be, while gearing up the best possible way. Just as I have always strived to do.

This is very true, no one will change their play style.
The question is whether tanks will still need to compromise VIT vs whatever stat to be most effective... But I get the feeling that SE doesn't like that design.

I think aggressive tanking should be driven more by play style rather gear so I'm totaly fine with damage scaling off VIT. I just don't want my current pentamelded acc go to waste considering the amount of gils I poured into it...

[Dante_V]

A couple things in context to the direct problems and issues at hand.

I think it should be noted that no where did they say that "that tanks were doing too much damage" as an issue. The issue was that tanking shouldn't involve millions dollar investments in crafting accessories and that vit accessories were dropping to the ground. This is undeniably true. The devs have said that they were fine specifically with the damage warrior was putting out in respect to both dps and tanks, so I'm inclined to believe that the balance between dps and tanks as far as damage output is fine in their eyes, and I would agree with this also.

The issue specifically is how to facilitate the current ends without the penatmelds and how to make it so tank accessories are viable. People implying that they are nerfing tank dps or lowering the output or the necessity thereof seem to be making claims from their own standpoints as opposed to that of the developers or the raiding community. The world first raiders and hardcore raiders are mostly the ones that are being addressed with the change as no other duties really necessitate a pentameld sets (ex primals have proven easily beaten with full 210 slaying accessories. My clear in both Thordan and Ravana was full slaying at 210 and 190 respectively) however this wasn't possible in savage due to the tank busters and incoming damage during early progression. Likewise the dps alone of just the dps also would not suffice to put down even faust ex on day 1, let alone oppressor and this made healer and tank dps mandatory for early clears thereby promoting the pentamelds to achieve both the vit and dps meta. With this in mind this is what i think is going to happen...

-Adjustments will be made to accessories to both promote the use of vit accessories, and deter the viability and use of pentameld/full slaying sets.
We know that primary stat materia limits are coming on crafted accessories in order to limit the main stat melds to only guaranteed melds. (open slots)
What we dont know is how this will be balanced to maintain current tank output in the long term. My personal guess is that it will either be done thru manipulation of the vitality stat to include damage just for tanks (to avoid dps from trying to use them likewise) OR some kind of secondary stat adjustment (either tank exclusive or current) that would pertain only to vit accessories. ex. a higher det budget to reflect loss of str on right side or something of the sort.

What should be noted is that precautions need to be met to deter dps from using the accessories lest we have the same issue in reverse, and also to encourage their use, meaning that if it isn't good enough people will go back to 2/3 & 3/2 combos or all slaying again. (assuming that they intend to avoid this)

My personal expectation is that it will likely be an adjustment to how vit is calculated exclusively for tanks to allow for the same affect without the str accessories AND a change on incoming tank damage (higher incoming damage) to further discourage the use of slaying accessories by increasing the vit meta to where taking str accessories just isn't an option if you want to survive. Both of these things to me seem plausible, easily implemented, and economically viable to both real world dev costs and time as opposed to creating all new stats or a complete reworks on stats (and all current game accessories by extension which would be a HUGE time investment.)

This is just my opinion however and it could be wrong, but as someone who payed millions for these accessories to meet those ends at one point, this is the type of change that would undoubtedly "persuade" me to take those over mix matching and full slaying as its both necessary and viable. Either way it will be interesting to see how it goes.

As far as outright nerfing tank dps I dont think that would happen but if it does, it will make high tier tank performance EVEN MORE demanding than it currently is. How so?

Well before lets say just as example your tank could do 1100 dps at full potential. (just random number) Meaning that the best players in the word are topping out at 1100. Once they nerf the dps, the BEST tanks are only doing say.... 700. What does this do to the people who weren't putting out optimal numbers? It further alienates them from raids and leads tanks to harsher standards than they currently are. Not only that, it would likewise increase pressure on healers and dps even more to make up the difference to get those clears. Just scraping by at 1%? Not any more...
So the tanks who were viable, but not the best, would now be suboptimal and the best would just be okay and the same would go for this effect on other roles. Not to mention the effects on enmity along with other things, which they say they are adjusting, but they have said this many many times and until it got to equilibrium, it would be a very rough ride for those who were trying to push by to begin with. This effect imo would also alienate tanks and make the job more stressful further exacerbating the tank issues already in place.

But again this is just my opinion and take it for what you will.

Have a superfantasticmegaawesome day

#5000chars

[Syzygian]

snip

The main problem I have with what was said here is that it assumes something that the dev team has straight-up said is not happening, and that is anymore A1-4s-style DPS checks, and it also assumes that if any change is made to a job or jobs' outgoing DPS ceiling that even the highest DPS check for a concurrent raid would not be adjusted accordingly to reflect that.

You're not the first to assume this, but it is frustrating to see people catastrophizing about nerfing tank DPS=won't be able to clear raids that aren't even out yet, as though they would keep the DPS checks at a level that assumes the nerf never happened. Why people think this is a certainty escapes me. Have a little faith. Just a little.

[Giantbane]

I somehow feel like this isn't an effective argument.

It's a universal longevity stat that you're talking about ret-conning into a damage stat. Every class is set up with damage stat + vit + secondaries on their gear, unifying that for tanks would make them unique, but not in any kind of good way.

It's just nice to feel like the game is built out of consistent systems and rules that were well thought out. VIT scaling damage breaks from existing rules in a way that feels cheap and tacked on and degrades the product for some people. Is it functional? Of course, but why blemish a perfectly good system by doing haphazard things when you don't have to?

That wouldn't be changing the calculations of anything, and if you mean literally taking all the VIT granted from full VIT right side and stacking it on top of all the VIT from right side, and then using STR accessories on top of that, that'd be pretty damn overpowered, like wearing full i210 VIT and STR simultaneously. I don't see that happening.

Overpowered is relative. And you don't necessarily have to add all or any VIT to the left side to even make it work, that's just the most basic solution. If they make things hit tanks harder, then the VIT becomes necessary and it's not a big deal. If they just add 1-2 more HP per VIT to 60 tanks, then you get the same effect without needing to touch the left side VIT values. Or you can balance boss damage output around existing VIT levels as if tanks were wearing no right side VIT jewelry. All existing fending jewelry will convert VIT to STR. Jewelry will have a melded right side cap of 0 VIT, which completely solves the melding problem without any need for special rules about which type of materia can be melded onto what.

And if they think full right side STR is too much DMG for tanks, they can muck with damage & enmity values to their hearts content.

Now that I think about it, it's probably the most straightforward solution to the whole matter.

[Jonnycbad]

If they make VIT the primary attribute for damage for PLD/WAR/DRK they will need to nerf how much it contributes to damage to like 0.75 or 0.66. Because then you have tanks with 20k HP(30k+ for WAR?), pulling the same damage as full STR tanks have now. It would be insane.

[Dante_V]

The main problem I have with what was said here is that it assumes something that the dev team has straight-up said is not happening, and that is anymore A1-4s-style DPS checks, and it also assumes that if any change is made to a job or jobs' outgoing DPS ceiling that even the highest DPS check for a concurrent raid would not be adjusted accordingly to reflect that.

You're not the first to assume this, but it is frustrating to see people catastrophizing about nerfing tank DPS=won't be able to clear raids that aren't even out yet, as though they would keep the DPS checks at a level that assumes the nerf never happened. Why people think this is a certainty escapes me. Have a little faith. Just a little.

On release day, typically dps checks have been fairly brutal due to ilvl discrepancy and gear transitions. I'm not assuming dps checks will be as high as current savage tier, and I never stated that "tank dps = won't be able to clear raids. In fact i don't even think I insinuated that. It's undeniable that pentamelds have been a thing in the previous raids, and that this was done to ease dps checks that also weren't as high as savage. Regardless of whether or not dps check are as high as current tier there will be dps checks and doing them on release probably won't be faceroll easy. My point was that outwardly nerfing tank dps would increase the burden on other members. It's an assessment of math. (If you'll remeber the current savage tier was balanced "without the input of healer dps" according to the devs yet was impossible to clear on day one without healer dps. This is because raids are balanced on the next teir of gear that we don't have and time gated so we won't have it day one. Of course it's all speculation as we don't have any concrete facts and I have faith in the development team that they aren't going to nerf tank dps for no reason as that wasn't the issue to begin with, in essence that was the opposite of the issue hence the demand for penatmelds. My explanation was more so why I thought this. I have no doubt that the raid will be balanced for the ilvl increase of the new gear, however as someone who will be going in day 1 I won't have the option of that gear right away and will be taking these raids on at the current lvl gear. But we will see.

[Synestra]

If they make VIT the primary attribute for damage for PLD/WAR/DRK they will need to nerf how much it contributes to damage to like 0.75 or 0.66. Because then you have tanks with 20k HP(30k+ for WAR?), pulling the same damage as full STR tanks have now. It would be insane.

Shhh!! I want my WAR to be even more OP in PvP! WAR can already achive 38k+ HP in PvP(non-synced), so having a same DMG as we have atm while still being able to eat 3 melee LB's in ROW and survive sounds so juicy :3

[RiisWolf]

Would be nice if Tank attack power was based on vitality instead of strength. Also I hope they give paladin a simple cleave.