Novice / Beginner / Training Hall -- General Discussion Topic

[hagare]

snip

I'm not disagreeing with reality. It's you who's only looking at this from NA perspective. Even the fact that you admit there are people in NA that won't blow up when things don't go their way supports my claim.

The community's problem is not one of skill, but of attitude.

The increased skill won't change the attitude of the people who are toxic, it'll just change how often they rage.

[Tinibou]

I think that this hall is a good idea anyway. A nice place to learn your class / your job and what are the keys of it. But I don't think that it will help with the awful HL players behavior. For instance, I've seen a lot of low level tanks who were very good tanks, marking enemies, pulling a few enemies at a time, and so on. It's just that the endgame transforms all that good things in creating rushing farmers who just care about getting their tomestones and have no respect. It's like most of people change in this game once they arrive in HL... so well, this hall is still good but won't change anything at the end.

[Fevelle]

that's where I disagree.
skill and attitude are not interconnected.
people's skills are different, and how others face these are different.
Not everyone blows up in anger when they're faced with less than good performance from other people.
You don't see someone's true character when everything is going smoothly.

I agree 100% with this.

[Fevelle]

...

IMO this would cause more harm than good. Newbies would follow exactly this and fail to realize that there are times that a Cure II is needed even without big damage (because you gotta top someone off for a big hit incoming) or that you need to put Regen on DPS and yourself everytime they take a little of damage.

Personally, that tooltip increase would be more well utilized if they made it a mini-lore for the skill (like differentiating the source of Cure from Physick and Benefic).

[Kallera]

I think that this hall is a good idea anyway. A nice place to learn your class / your job and what are the keys of it. But I don't think that it will help with the awful HL players behavior. For instance, I've seen a lot of low level tanks who were very good tanks, marking enemies, pulling a few enemies at a time, and so on. It's just that the endgame transforms all that good things in creating rushing farmers who just care about getting their tomestones and have no respect. It's like most of people change in this game once they arrive in HL... so well, this hall is still good but won't change anything at the end.

This comment about the attitude cannot be stressed enough. The culture of having to grind content over and over creates the urge to learn speedruns and have players adhere to taking characters to the edge, then complaining when something goes wrong. Throw in old content that is repeated again and again, and it reaches and affects the newer player's experience.

[SpookyGhost]

I think that this hall is a good idea anyway. A nice place to learn your class / your job and what are the keys of it. But I don't think that it will help with the awful HL players behavior. For instance, I've seen a lot of low level tanks who were very good tanks, marking enemies, pulling a few enemies at a time, and so on. It's just that the endgame transforms all that good things in creating rushing farmers who just care about getting their tomestones and have no respect. It's like most of people change in this game once they arrive in HL... so well, this hall is still good but won't change anything at the end.

This is an inherent problem with the game, that fosters this kind of attitude. Imagine a version of XIV where everything was a cake walk, no raids, just a casual briskly paced MMO. You wouldn't have this attitude because elitism would go the way of the dinosaurs. That's not to say that an MMO has to be casualized to allow for this sort of community, but you can't actively support it with allowing speedruns, allowing gear to be an epeen competition, etc. XI has a slew of problems, but I'd argue that because of the amount of horizontal progression and difficulty to get to end game, the community is a lot kinder and helpful than most you'd find in the XIV end game communities. Regardless, it's nice to pass the book onto the players as many do and exclude SE's involvement entirely, but expecting the community to be kind and nice when the game is built the way it is is a bit rose-tinted.

[Reinha]

I think WoW's Proving Grounds was very well implemented. It had challenges for every role. The dps one required interrupts and dodging, the tank one required positioning and taunts, and the healer on required dispells and mana (mp) management which is a foreign concept to a lot of healers. There were increasingly difficult levels and defeating the most difficult one with 30 waves of enemies rewarded the player with a title <Proven Healer/Tank/Assailant>. That title alone was enough to make me do it on my main. Do you think it would work as an incentive for this game's community?

In the most recent expansion, defeating the "normal" difficulty (on a scale of easy-normal-hard-extreme) was required to use WoW's Duty Finder to queue for max level dungeons. Not sure how I feel about that, because some people in those dungeons were still pretty bad.

Take a look for yourself, the hardest challenge from a dps perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DlFUMzcBQw

Oh forgot to mention that all gear was scaled down to a certain item level during the MoP expansion, and the enemies were scaled up to your item level in the WoD expansion (current). I think the MoP model worked a bit better.

[pushin_tin]

What is the novice hall supposed to do about ignorant players already at level cap?

[Gilraen]

The only delusion I see in this thread is the one that the raid community is the exemplar of XIV. I play to the best of my ability, but I don't do the raids while they are in raid rotation because of the raid community. I don't want that kind of aggravation in a game. I don't want to be treated like I'm the disease when I'm trying to learn the content, especially if noone tells you anything about it or expects you to watch videos or read guides. Not everyone can learn the feel of the content by watching or reading how someone else did it. Nor do I like to be talked to in a harsh or derogatory manner. Again, this is a game. If I wanted to be treated like I'm at work, I'd go back to work! I don't get where this attitude stems, either. I know I've only ever treated jerks in the ways I've seen these people treating players they've likely never met before.

Now mind, some of the best players I know, raiders who had full sets of dreadwyrm (glamoured over better gear) before it went Duty Finder, are some of the coolest and most level-headed players I've met. These players are very clearly exceptions to the community. The norm I try to avoid, but as patches get older it gets progressively harder to do. The raid community's problem isn't skill level, it's the prevailing attitude driving people away.

[Kaurie]

I have fairly low expectations for the training hall. I am guessing it will do no better job of teaching players how to play than Guildhests.

Players need to know they are bad or not performing well before they learn to improve. They need appropriate feedback to show them as such. As the only difficult content in game is team oriented, it's very easy to blame messups on other players and avoid accepting any blame.

In order for the training hall to succeed, it actually needs to be difficult. However, it won't be, and it will simply be another way to reinforce in peoples minds that they are not as bad as they actually are.

The only delusion I see in this thread is the one that the raid community is the exemplar of XIV. I play to the best of my ability, but I don't do the raids while they are in raid rotation because of the raid community. I don't want that kind of aggravation in a game. I don't want to be treated like I'm the disease when I'm trying to learn the content, especially if noone tells you anything about it or expects you to watch videos or read guides. Not everyone can learn the feel of the content by watching or reading how someone else did it. Nor do I like to be talked to in a harsh or derogatory manner. Again, this is a game. If I wanted to be treated like I'm at work, I'd go back to work! I don't get where this attitude stems, either. I know I've only ever treated jerks in the ways I've seen these people treating players they've likely never met before..

This only happens after the raids have been out for awhile and are no longer in a 'progression' type stage. It's when people who are not top tier try to tackle the raids in progression and refuse to admit that they are actually at fault. They easily toss the blame to whoever they can.

If you raid near the early stages of a raid tier, you won't see any of the toxicity that you're suggesting. I'd say most of the raid community is very nice.