Thread: The Current Status of FFXIV Patch 3.1 and How to Address it Moving Forward

Originally Posted by Velhart

It is pretty obvious that SE is oblivious when it comes to understanding proper end game structure. They look at numbers and charts and assume the direction should be based off that.

To suggest that the SE ignore "numbers and charts" in constructing the endgame seems pretty weird to me: content clear rates and player engagement with content are one of the best metrics they have to gauge whether a particular type of content is successful (or not, as has been the case with Alexander Savage). How else are they supposed to gauge whether or not something is working or not?

Originally Posted by Velhart

SE should be focusing on trying to get less experienced people into challenging content, and then try to get people into really hard content after that. Not release an easy mode so you don't have to put the effort end game.

They did a lot of that in ARR—a lot of the game's content structure is organized in such a way as to lower the barriers for entry for the hardest content. That's part of why the original HM Primals were required to unlock Coil, and why mid-range weapons drop from current EX Primals. It's why Tomestone gear is no longer immediately at the highest item level (as it was for Myth gear at i90) (Yoshi came right out and said they did this because it encouraged people to skip raiding).

Quite frankly I'm not sure what else they could do to get people interested in challenging stuff. Those that want a challenge will seek it, and those that don't, won't, and the latter group consists of a larger portion of the player base than the former.

Originally Posted by Alahra

To suggest that the SE ignore "numbers and charts" in constructing the endgame seems pretty weird to me: content clear rates and player engagement with content are one of the best metrics they have to gauge whether a particular type of content is successful (or not, as has been the case with Alexander Savage). How else are they supposed to gauge whether or not something is working or not?

They might have the numbers, but they don't necessarily take the context behind it. They said they considered Alexander normal to be a "success" because of the clear rates (or at the very least, Yoshi-p is extremely satisified by it and they won't drop the model). But why is it a success? Why is the clear rate so high? Would they consider 3.1's MSQ to be a success with it's current clear rates?

I personally would have preferred normal mode to be akin to FCoB because that's something that allows for a natural nerf to it with echo to open it up to the "non-challenge seekers", along side with the numerous other content (debatable if it's good or not, which is a different discussion) that they already have. With the setup we have now, you have pepole that don't care for a challenge, the people that want to raid, and the people that want to hardcore raid. A good chunk of the playerbase is in the middle as well, but the current set up of the content does not cater to that with how tuned savage is.

Originally Posted by Alahra

They did a lot of that in ARR—a lot of the game's content structure is organized in such a way as to lower the barriers for entry for the hardest content. That's part of why the original HM Primals were required to unlock Coil, and why mid-range weapons drop from current EX Primals. It's why Tomestone gear is no longer immediately at the highest item level (as it was for Myth gear at i90) (Yoshi came right out and said they did this because it encouraged people to skip raiding).

This would have been the ideal setup. The barriers eventually get tuned down in the form of progressive gearing (espesically in a vertical progression), and there's no need to pre-emptively plan for content that opens up to players that do not have a interest in raiding or commitment.

Originally Posted by Alahra

Quite frankly I'm not sure what else they could do to get people interested in challenging stuff. Those that want a challenge will seek it, and those that don't, won't, and the latter group consists of a larger portion of the player base than the former.

Look at the other perspective, the people that want to do things like raid only have savage mode to look toward. It's tune up so high that even ilvl supplementation doesn't help, and you don't nessescarly want to nerf savage mode if it's intent is that it's supposed to be hard. They're seeking a challenge, but it's not nessescarly the challenge they want, but this only became evident (and in large strides no less) with Alexander Savage in comparison to FCoB.

Originally Posted by Sardonia

1. People as for interesting stats on gear: This is a two edge sword. Even though it would be interesting and neat, it can also play horribly. People would find out what equipment is the best and if you do not have it good luck with getting into some what challenging or challenging content.

People already min/max in accordance to the substats which have very small influence on actual gameplay. On top of that, players had already excluded certain jobs or players whom have not cleared the content from doing content. Player (ir)responsibility should not be a reason to not implement something, honestly.

Originally Posted by Sardonia

2. People asking for equipment to last longer and be more relevant. I kind of agree and disagree. Players would rush to get the equipment and say no there is nothing left to do and say they are bored for a much longer time then what we have now.

Again, people already do this in regards to anima. I personally have been burned out and bored long before anima came, but at the same time, I have not cleared A4s to fully slot my main. We've actually been on A3s for months now, and while its technically "something to do", it doesn't change the fact that the burnout still occurs for other reasons.

Originally Posted by Sardonia

3. Players believe Heavensward is a rehash of 2.0. Yes it is technically but with new areas, new classes, etc, etc. Not sure what players were thinking this was going to change. An expansion is what it is, an addition to the core game and not an entirely new game.

The problem comes is that it delivered very little in regards to what an expansion is supposed to do, as well as the groundwork it lays out. No one is asking for an entirely new game, that's why they got the expansion for FFXIV to continue playing FFXIV. However, the rehashes has gotten noticably worse due to how long it takes inbetween each patch (the delay between 3.0 and 3.1. the delay of the anima quest). In a sense, it's "rehashing, but they're doing it worse" and the fact that they're continuing it for such a long period of time. Try to look at it from their perspective to why they feel it's a problem.

For me, the new job, specifically MCH feels like a reskinned BRD at times, and some jobs feel largely unchanged, if not regressed in their road to 60. We're getting one less dungeon per patch cycle so it feels even more repetitive when we do roulette, Alexander does not do much different in regards to presentation from normal to savage mode (see normal/hard and EX primals for example).

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Look at the other perspective, the people that want to do things like raid only have savage mode to look toward. It's tune up so high that even ilvl supplementation doesn't help, and you don't nessescarly want to nerf savage mode if it's intent is that it's supposed to be hard. They're seeking a challenge, but it's not nessescarly the challenge they want, but this only became evident (and in large strides no less) with Alexander Savage in comparison to FCoB.

Don't get me wrong, I think Savage is stupid, and I think the gap between NM and Savage is FAR too wide, and I also think they've done a poor job over the last year or two of developing mid-core content. I think a lot of the issue, though, is that SE has (at least up until this point) not really considered "mid-core content" a thing they should actually be concerned with.

Their error has largely been in assuming that there are two player types when it comes to player engagement with difficult content (non-raider vs. raider), but there are actually three, with "raiders" being split into raider and hardcore raider as you mentioned.

From their comments regarding Titan EX and EX primals in general, I think they were actually very disappointed with the clear rates for that content. They seem to have actually expected a lot more of the playerbase to use them as a gateway into Coil (which is how they worked for me, actually—I was never a raider before this game), but they took the lesson from them that a majority of the playerbase doesn't want content that hard. That has always greatly disappointed me and I've pretty much ignored EX primals ever since Leviathan because the reward to effort ratio just doesn't feel satisfying to me—they're just hard enough that getting stop-gap gear just doesn't feel rewarding for them.

Originally Posted by Kaurie

Honestly, I think this is the issue. They want to classify people in to these big groups, but there isn't really a large category that people belong to. It's much more of a scale. Not every non-raider is on equal footing, not every raider is on equal-footing. They need content to match this scaling mentality, where things naturally progress.

Most definitely. I will agree that they've probably gotten too caught up in the numbers without necessarily taking the right lessons from them. With regard to the original EX Primals for instance, fewer people cleared Titan than they expected. But I do wonder how many players that did clear Titan went on to also clear Binding Coil and if that's something they had a way to track back then. The original three primals, both in their HM and EX incarnations, had a wonderful sense of "progression" to them that we've never really had anything comparable to since.

Ifrit HM had a relatively simple "follow the numbers" pattern with a basic DPS check, which prepared you for a slightly more involved pattern in Garuda HM (that also introduced tanks to kiting mechanics, since you had to drag her around originally), which in turn prepared you for the mechanics of Titan HM. At that point, the more hardcore players were probably comfortable enough to start doing Coil. It was the same with the EXes. Garuda EX was the first major "tank split" fight, which is a useful thing for healers to become comfortable with, and Titan EX made tank swapping front and center (with add phases that were reminiscent of T4 in terms of incoming tank damage), while Ifrit put an emphasis on focused DPS targeting and situational awareness with Searing Wind.

A "mid-core" player could reasonably progress through the six original Primal fights at level 50 and suddenly find that raiding wasn't as daunting as it once was in the past, both because of additionally acquired gear and just from progressing through the fights themselves. And they served as a pretty good "endgame substitute" for the non-raiders, too. I knew numerous players for whom clearing Titan EX was the pinnacle of achievement. These players often didn't really raid, but they still had a sort of similar content they wanted to do and clear.

But ever since that point, HM/EX primals haven't really served as any sort of stepping stone, and I think that's a bloody shame. EX primals are all sort of in between the HM/EXes of 2.0/2.1 now, and the "story" mode fights don't honestly serve much of a purpose outside of narrative, since they stopped putting rewards on them. I really do wish they'd go back to putting meaningful rewards on the Primals and making them more "progression" oriented as they were originally. I still feel like 2.1 was this game's peak in terms of the range of available content (even CT, while "easy" didn't really coddle the player the way the later 24-man raids have, potentially preparing them for more difficult content both in terms of drops and in terms of mechanics).

Honestly the easiest solution would be to obtain gear the way you want to.

Run dungeons for tombs for gear.
Run normal mode raid for tokens for same gear.
Run EX primals for tokens for same gear.
Do stuff in the open world for tokens for same gear.
Do Savage raid for a little better gear then the rest.

This would at least let everyone choose how they would want to gear their characters and let you do a little bit of everything if you wanted. It would also help with not getting a variety of upgraded gear each cycle.

To the poster that responded to me above. I would agree with you that they did not do a good job with MCH or BRD. I play Bard and do not like WM. I can play with it but I just do not like it. However, there are many that do like it so again who do you listen to when looking at feedback?

Originally Posted by Kaurie

For me the issue isn't the ways to obtain gear. I don't care if there is only 1 way to obtain gear. I want variation in the gear, and I want progression to feel more natural. Alex 1-4 NM is basically all the same difficulty. Why not have 2 be quite a bit harder than 1, 3 quite a bit harder than 2 etc. It just seems really weird.

Like there should be a natural path between all raids A1->A2->A3->A4->A1S->A2s->A3S with each one getting a little bit harder (not potentially easier, and not waaaaay harder).

In my opinions, I believe Alex NM 1-4 was staggered pretty well for difficulty for the average player. That is just my opinion though. Have not done Alex HM so no clue but I from what I read they increased the difficulty greatly at AS3 which they are addressing in 3.2 from what I know.