Why is "It's something to do" apparently a valid defense?

[Moqi]

The fact that we *don't* have to do challenging content for the Zodiac weapon and now the Anima weapon was because people wanted the weapon *not* to need challenging content.

Did people complain about challenging content, or did they complain about Titan? Because Titan was a roadblock to many for reasons unrelated to the actual difficulty of the fight - and it was the same for Titan EX which had nothing to do with the relic. They had to unlock the other primals gated because people complained about the fight there too.

Genuine question because I've never seen anyone complain about Garuda, Ifrit, Chimera or Hydra. I actually see that part of the relic mostly getting praise. Maybe the problem wasn't difficult content but "Titan is unplayable, don't ever put that particular trial in the relic" and SE took it to mean "don't put any trial ever again in the relic"... and it wouldn't be the first time that SE completely misunderstands what peole are asking.

[Reilyn]

Did people complain about challenging content, or did they complain about Titan? Because Titan was a roadblock to many for reasons unrelated to the actual difficulty of the fight - and it was the same for Titan EX which had nothing to do with the relic. They had to unlock the other primals gated because people complained about the fight there too.

Genuine question because I've never seen anyone complain about Garuda, Ifrit, Chimera or Hydra. I actually see that part of the relic mostly getting praise. Maybe the problem wasn't difficult content but "Titan is unplayable, don't ever put that particular trial in the relic" and SE took it to mean "don't put any trial ever again in the relic"... and it wouldn't be the first time that SE completely misunderstands what peole are asking.

It's a sad possibility I'm curious about too. We coulda've had leviathan, ramuh, shiva, etc be involved with the relic instead of me catching myself falling asleep at the keyboard in copperbell, and thousand snores on more than one occasion for atma books.

Right now, what I'm taking away from this is the casual/incapable players have literally resulted in killing the feel of satisfaction in anything relic related after 2.0; the last time I ever felt good about doing anything relic-related. Watching those people punch holes into a ship, and watching it sink since isn't cool.

[Alahra]

Genuine question because I've never seen anyone complain about Garuda, Ifrit, Chimera or Hydra. I actually see that part of the relic mostly getting praise.

They don't complain about it so much *now* but 2 years ago, people did, and Titan HM runs used to sell like crazy on my server back then. Titan was rather hard content at the time it was released, with DPS checks that were pretty difficult at the time given available gear and healing checks that required almost full i70 to reasonably survive, especially given that the game was new and people hadn't really worked out the best priorities for DPS and all of that. Titan did have *other* issues of course, namely with the apparent lag caused by the way Weight of the Land and Landslide render (I think it's telling they have't used those same effects outside of Titan EX and Ultima HM since then, at least, not that I recall).

[RiceisNice]

They don't complain about it so much *now* but 2 years ago, people did, and Titan HM runs used to sell like crazy on my server back then. Titan was rather hard content at the time it was released, with DPS checks that were pretty difficult at the time given available gear and healing checks that required almost full i70 to reasonably survive. Titan did have *other* issues of course, namely with the apparent lag caused by the way Weight of the Land renders (I think it's telling they have't used that same effect outside of Titan EX and Ultima HM since then, at least, not that I recall).

Even if you opt out the primals, look at the other steps of the base relic; you had crafting with materia melding, fetching items, and well..actual lore behind your weapon as an individual. The Anima quests opt out on all of this entirely (including trials), and makes you revisit 2.x dungeons rather than all 3.x dungeons and EX primals (which at this point have echo mind you, I don't think even titan HM on release had that). Same with step 3's progression if you aren't using Alexander to speed it up. It really looks like they haven't put any work in utilizing new content in the current expansion, but instead making us revisit 2.0. I brought the expansion with expectations that I'm playing with new features of the game, not features that require us to play in 2.0 areas to progress.

And speaking from experience, weight of the land was the only AoE marker that would lock up my screen during titan EX and most of my deaths would attribute to getting hit by it because we were stacked. Only way for me to avoid it was to stack way from the other players and move pre-emptively (so I don't drop it in front of them, esp during double weights)

[Alahra]

-snip-

I'll agree I was hoping for more weapon-specific Lore as well, though honestly, we don't know that there won't be any. If they don't at least talk a bit about what the Anima stage is when we get it for each weapon, I'd be pretty surprised (I'm sure the text has been datamined of course, but I'm sure most people have avoided it like the plague for spoilers). It does seem like we're not remaking an old legendary weapon this time though, so in a sense we're *making* the lore--so we wouldn't get a lore dump at the start anyway.

I was also surprised by the inclusion of 2.x dungeons, though I wasn't particularly surprised by the inclusion of Snowcloak and Keeper of the Lake, since those are story dungeons. It felt really odd to me that Great Gubal Library and Fractal/Neverreap weren't included, honestly, and I would have rather had those than the 4 Hard Mode dungeons we did get. However, they probably skipped Fractal/Neverreap because people complained so much about being burnt out on them.

But most of the content used in the Anima line, outside of the dungeons for the 170-200 stage, is still "new" content that came out this raid tier, which has been par for the course with the questline ever since they introduced the Zodiac Saga during SCoB. It's almost never engaged with the absolute newest content except in indirect ways. As I said above, I'm still rather surprised Diadem doesn't have anything as of yet to do with the Anima questline, but I'd lay money that it will be involved with whatever the next stage we get in 3.2 is (if there is one in 3.2, anyway).

Beyond that, they're kind of in a catch-22: one of the longstanding complaints about the game is that it is too quick to abandon old content. The Relic's a rather effective way to create reason to run some of the older stuff, as people aren't going to run outdated content without suitable carrots (cosmetics simply aren't enough for a lot of the population). However, putting old content in the Relic line is seen as a disappointment to some players--but if they didn't, they'd also have to find suitable ways to get people interested in the *older* stuff. And they also have financial incentive to milk content for as much as they can, since the team is small--I don't mean that as an excuse for them, but just a reality of the situation. Given the team's size, we're lucky we do have so many things to do with what content we do have (hell, WoW's team is probably 3 or 4 times the size of FFXIV's, and they have *less* content).

Edit (for a brief aside on lag and Titan): Some of the complaints about lag were in part because people hadn't yet realized that you have to be out of the marked area when the *cast bar* finishes, rather than when the visible animation for it finishes. That's the case for all AoE's, but in Titan, it's of special note because of how weird Weight of the Land is. Something in its visual effect causes a lot of animation display, so it frequently displays late or lingers for a little longer, creating the appearance that it's still "safe" when it's not. Similar things actually could happen in Leviathan with the water spouts before his Dives (especially on PS3) and we haven't seen attack animations of that nature since then, either.

[RiceisNice]

But most of the content used in the Anima line, outside of the dungeons for the 170-200 stage, is still "new" content that came out this raid tier, which has been par for the course with the questline ever since they introduced the Zodiac Saga during SCoB. It's almost never engaged with the absolute newest content except in indirect ways. As I said above, I'm still rather surprised Diadem doesn't have anything as of yet to do with the Anima questline, but I'd lay money that it will be involved with whatever the next stage we get in 3.2 is (if there is one in 3.2, anyway).

The circumstances between the two are different though, mostly due to the expansion (and the expectations that well...come from an expansion). Zodiac has you revisiting level 50 content. Most of the approaches in anima requires you revisiting 50 content at level 60. Even if you exclude the dungeons, you have four 2.x beast tribes, 2.x hunts, and 2.x tomestones, while leaving the "current tier" or even 3.x content mostly un-utilized, specifically the EX primals and the level 60 dungeons.

Beyond that, they're kind of in a catch-22: one of the longstanding complaints about the game is that it is too quick to abandon old content. The Relic's a rather effective way to create reason to run some of the older stuff, as people aren't going to run outdated content without suitable carrots (cosmetics simply aren't enough for a lot of the population). However, putting old content in the Relic line is seen as a disappointment to some players--but if they didn't, they'd also have to find suitable ways to get people interested in the *older* stuff.

Again like I mentioned above, there's a difference between when they were making old content in 2.0 be relevant for future 2.0 relic steps. We're in the 3.0 cycle now, it's backwards thinking to make people go revisit 2.0 areas, especially for something like beast tribes that doesn't make you interact with other players like you would for dungeons or even FATEs. Is there a pressing need to make something like 2.x hunts (which in hindsight actually give more than 3.x since you use allied seals for relic, but not centaruo seals) or beast tribes more lively?

And they also have financial incentive to milk content for as much as they can, since the team is small--I don't mean that as an excuse for them, but just a reality of the situation. Given the team's size, we're lucky we do have so many things to do with what content we do have (hell, WoW's team is probably 3 or 4 times the size of FFXIV's, and they have *less* content).

There's going to be times where this just won't fly anymore with the players, especially if they're not meeting the standards that they themselves have set in the past. Even if you're trying to argue that WoW gets less content (because their patch cycles, while longer, add a lot more content which lasts a lot longer, including a new area, daily hubs, and the such), there's always the aspect of Quality > quantity.

[Alahra]

The circumstances between the two are different though, mostly due to the expansion (and the expectations that well...come from an expansion).

That's certainly true, though on a personal level I don't mind some interaction with 2.0 content. I'd much rather they keep the old areas and content at least somewhat relevant, rather than have every expansion be a giant "reset button," as is the case with WoW. It's also not required in any way to visit old content for the Anima stage, and in fact the most efficient way is to do Alexander Normal (which is how I have to assume the player that finished in 3 days or so got theirs). We will likely see less use of ARR content for future stages--it's possible they dipped back into it to, again, avoid making us focus so much on content so many folks had been playing ad nauseum for a lot of 3.0 already. It's always a struggle to find a good balance--on the one hand, 3.1 was delayed, so the meager content helping we got in 3.0 was very tired to a lot of the playerbase. On the other, if we had needed to farm Fractal and Neverreap specifically (rather than the more flexible need for Tomestones), there would have likely been a lot of upset players as well.

I don't personally get why they didn't include the HM versions of Bismarck and Ravana though (or even the EX versions, which aren't all that bad with the availability of Echo--but I suppose that goes back to their apparent decision not to force 8-man content on the relic quest anymore).

Is there a pressing need to make something like 2.x hunts (which in hindsight actually give more than 3.x since you use allied seals for relic, but not centaruo seals) or beast tribes more lively?

Not more lively, no. I'm...actually pretty puzzled by the specific inclusion of Allied Seals and not Centurio Seals. Regarding the Beast Tribe quests, if I had to guess, they wanted to throw people a bone that had done them back in the day. I never did them myself (I loathe Daily quests after playing WoW for so long), and the extra avenue of progress was enough for me to actually consider doing them (but I ultimately decided against it). In this case, I think it's less about making the content available to newer players (as is the case with dungeons and the like) and more about just providing options to make the grind more player friendly.

Personally, I have barely touched Hunts since 2.3, so it's actually a bit refreshing to be doing them again, but I know a lot of folks did them to the point where they were absolutely tiring. I hit that point after the initial 2.3 grind for Sands/Oils of Time and very rarely engaged with them after that point, though.

There's going to be times where this just won't fly anymore with the players, especially if they're not meeting the standards that they themselves have set in the past. Even if you're trying to argue that WoW gets less content (because their patch cycles, while longer, add a lot more content which lasts a lot longer, including a new area, daily hubs, and the such), there's always the aspect of Quality > quantity.

I haven't played WoW since MoP, so I only know what I hear through the grapevine about the amount of content they get. I do know they frequently don't get additional dungeons each expansion, or if they do, it's only three or so, from back when I played. And I hear a lot about how there's nothing to do in WoW these days outside of logging in every day to manage your garrison. That to me says WoW has an issue with the amount of content, but as admitted, I'm only going off what I hear about it--I haven't liked that game since Wrath of the Lich King and I tend to stay away from it. I much prefer the steady pace of content releases here, even if they're sometimes smaller bits.

Regarding past standards, I don't recall any that they've egregiously broken, outside of perhaps the delays between 3.0 and 3.1. But it also depends on what you're referring to. I know some folks have been bringing up that old keynote address where Yoshi mentioned fun needing to come first, but...that's a subjective thing. Personally, I'm having a ton of fun now that Anima's in the game--but I also recognize that not everyone likes this style of gameplay.

[RiceisNice]

That's certainly true, though on a personal level I don't mind some interaction with 2.0 content. I'd much rather they keep the old areas and content at least somewhat relevant, rather than have every expansion be a giant "reset button," as is the case with WoW. It's also not required in any way to visit old content for the Anima stage, and in fact the most efficient way is to do Alexander Normal (which is how I have to assume the player that finished in 3 days or so got theirs).

\

As someone who already has burn out for the game and just wants to take the relic approach rather slowly, this is why it bothers me. It's most efficent to spam Alexander run, but I honestly can't be bothered enough to do my relic that fast, so I'd rather take the slow approach (which means going back to the old content). Doubly so when they kept delaying this content because it wasn't ready or whatever, it does not reflect 5+ months of extra developmental time. Of course I could opt out on doing beast tribe and the level 50 roulette for poetics, but it'll essentially double the time investment needed to get done, at that point I'll probably unsub from the game before then.

I haven't played WoW since MoP, so I only know what I hear through the grapevine about the amount of content they get. I do know they frequently don't get additional dungeons each expansion, or if they do, it's only three or so, from back when I played. And I hear a lot about how there's nothing to do in WoW these days outside of logging in every day to manage your garrison. That to me says WoW has an issue with the amount of content, but as admitted, I'm only going off what I hear about it--I haven't liked that game since Wrath of the Lich King and I tend to stay away from it. I much prefer the steady pace of content releases here, even if they're sometimes smaller bits.

Funny enough, I bought the WoD expansion and 30 days of game time for me and my friend just to take a break from this game, and at least get our characters to 100 for the new expansion (which has my attention).

In a nutshell, WoD (the current expansion) is mirroring a lot of the issues that 3.x is going on with right now. The entire expansion as a whole feels like it didn't change or evovle your character with the (imo excessive) ability pruning, some feels like they've lost something or feel oversimplified), so you were essentially playing the same character as you did in MoP. There's a lack of new dungeons, and on release the end game really wasn't all that there. There was also ultimately content that was cut off to meet deadlines, features that were cut off for reasons (such as flying), and the new features are ok at best, but becomes a mess when it's integral to progression (Garrisons). Of course the developers giving condensending answers to the players rather than admitting their mistakes ("We cut XYZ because story reasons that you don't understand (and this doesn't even make sense lore-wise, mind you), versus "we scrapped it because we ran out of time")

If I had to vouch one thing that 3.0 did well (that isn't story and OST, because I feel that this is a given for a FF title), is how some of the jobs evolve compared to their 2.0 counterparts. NIN and BRD though imo fail spectactularly at this regard, and even MCH feels shafted in what they initially had visioned versus what we actually got. But even that only lasts for so long because it's going to be there for the entirity of 3.0 (excluding major job balancing like they did with DRG and WAR), and the current circumstances of the content we have now.

[Reilyn]

They don't complain about it so much *now* but 2 years ago, people did, and Titan HM runs used to sell like crazy on my server back then. Titan was rather hard content at the time it was released, with DPS checks that were pretty difficult at the time given available gear and healing checks that required almost full i70 to reasonably survive, especially given that the game was new and people hadn't really worked out the best priorities for DPS and all of that. Titan did have *other* issues of course, namely with the apparent lag caused by the way Weight of the Land and Landslide render (I think it's telling they have't used those same effects outside of Titan EX and Ultima HM since then, at least, not that I recall).

I seen the videos of the funky lag, but never really experienced it first hand as clearly (or maybe I just accepted any hiccups as my fault, and muscled through it anyway). One such video is of a person clearly getting out of landslide's visual before it dissappeared, but being ejected out of the ring anyway...

[Moqi]

snip

Thanks. I've never seen anyone complain about DPS checks, only lag, but I got to Titan in 2.2 so it was already old content. Ramuh was the strictest DPS check I've experienced on primals.

I seen the videos of the funky lag, but never really experienced it first hand as clearly (or maybe I just accepted any hiccups as my fault, and muscled through it anyway). One such video is of a person clearly getting out of landslide's visual before it dissappeared, but being ejected out of the ring anyway...

It was terrible. I had Run on cooldown, but evading it was all luck. I practiced for months and always randomly died... as soon as I got a PS4, I cleared it first without ever getting hit by anything and had it on farm. It was like a completely different fight.