Why is "It's something to do" apparently a valid defense?

[Alahra]

You'd have to consider that at the time, base relic would be severely merged by the passage of time. You had weekly lock in the times required, and the crafting matierals were not abundent since they were dungeon drop

I was there at the time, I've been playing since relaunch. The time investment for the original Relic Reborn quest wasn't anywhere near that of any step that followed. Even learning Titan itself didn't take all that long. The 2.0 Relic Quest was a lot more like the Tomestone weapons from 2.2 and 2.4 in terms of investment than it was anything else. The materials weren't incredibly rare either as WP was a pretty common dungeon for tomestone farming.

It was 3 weeks of tomestones to get the i90 version (900 Mythology), and the prior step wasn't week-locked at all. So you could have the i80, base relic within 2 hours of hitting 50 if you already had a level 50 job to prep the tomestones with. The first job obviously took longer, as you had to gear up first for Titan, but the 2.0 Relic was less about deciding "Okay, this is my main," and a lot more about thinking "I guess I need a good starter weapon for my new job" because the effort needed was so much less than it would be in the future.

This led to two avenues of complaints: one coming from raiders who felt T5 wasn't worth it (it originally only gave i90 weapons itself), and the other from (I have to assume) FFXI players who wanted the Relic to "mean something" as it were.

[RiceisNice]

It was 3 weeks of tomestones to get the i90 version (900 Mythology), and the prior step wasn't week-locked at all. So you could have the i80, base relic within 2 hours of hitting 50 if you already had a level 50 job to prep the tomestones with. The first job obviously took longer, as you had to gear up first for Titan, but the 2.0 Relic was less about deciding "Okay, this is my main," and a lot more about thinking "I guess I need a good starter weapon for my new job" because the effort needed was so much less than it would be in the future.

Getting the base relic always did seem like something to get your alt job started, considering that at the time, there was no way to gain weapons from tomestones alone (which only begun with tomestones of law and poetics after 2.5). Eithercase, it's definitely not the case now since people are straight up getting alt weapons from law tomestones or even primal tokens. The 2.0 relics was something I looked forward to in order to get my job started, if only it's to get a title and a weapon that would match the identity of my job. And once you were beyond the first step and the amount of time investment needed to get it going, you pretty much would invest your time on the relic you were getting your main for.

This led to two avenues of complaints: one coming from raiders who felt T5 wasn't worth it (it originally only gave i90 weapons itself), and the other from (I have to assume) FFXI players who wanted the Relic to "mean something" as it were.

This is more on itemization for the item drops rather than an issue with relic specifically (at the very least, it's a far stretch to blame the relic as the source of the problem, versus the raid giving lower leveled rewards). IMO the relic is fine the way it is as far as ilvl is concerned (and I do wish they would incorporate raiding elements into it to justify it being BiS or equal to raid gear). Beyond that though, it really does feel like all it is a weapon model at times...especially when I got the yoichi bow on my BRD

[Alahra]

Eithercase, it's definitely not the case now since people are straight up getting alt weapons from law tomestones or even primal tokens.

Right, it's not the case now, and part of the reason it *is* that way is because of some of the initial dissatisfaction with how the Relic quest was set up originally.

This is more on itemization for the item drops rather than an issue with relic specifically (at the very least, it's a far stretch to blame the relic as the source of the problem, versus the raid giving lower leveled rewards).

The relic *itself* wasn't the problem, no, but one of the ways the developers chose to address the problem, in addition to the increased item level for the weapons themselves, was to make future non-raid weapon options either have a significant time investment (future Relic stages), require at least some Raiding (Unidentified/Encrypted Tomestones for Tomestone weapons), or other content with raid-like difficulty (the original, non-echo EX primals).

The point in general though was that there was a lot of dissatisfaction with the original Relic implementation, coming from a lot of different directions. Some players didn't like the difficulty of the fights (well, Titan). Others felt the reward given for the time investment was too great, and still others wanted Relics to be a sign of dedication and/or to last for a significant amount of time. All of that feedback played into the design of the resulting Zodiac Weapon Saga.

The fact that it even exists at all was because of player feedback, as the developers originally didn't have any plans for the Relics to grow in power. So it's not so simple as the developers getting rid of the things players liked: the questline as a whole was in fact an attempt to address a number of things the players weren't satisfied with. It has, by and large, actually satisfied its original goals, for what it's worth, even if the forums explode with complaints each time a new step is released.

[RiceisNice]

Right, it's not the case now, and part of the reason it *is* that way is because of some of the initial dissatisfaction with how the Relic quest was set up originally.

...


The fact that it even exists at all was because of player feedback, as the developers originally didn't have any plans for the Relics to grow in power. So it's not so simple as the developers getting rid of the things players liked: the questline as a whole was in fact an attempt to address a number of things the players weren't satisfied with. It has, by and large, actually satisfied its original goals, for what it's worth, even if the forums explode with complaints each time a new step is released.

Even then, a good handful of the steps (with the exception of 1 in regards to atma being done on any job) in animus do not reflect any of the feedback though other than requiring "hard content". Being able to progress on jobs aside from your main has been there since zodiac as well, so at the very least when it came to doing previous content, they carried that over.

Not to mention I've hardly ever seen anyone talk about how dissatisfied they were with the intial relic quest, other than the fact that titan HM was required (and a good amount of it was attributed more on latency, compared to the fight being a legitimate skill check). And they still left out other niches like the weapons being an individual entity rather than using a broad-sweeping brush to funnel it into all the same plot.

Pardon me when I'm implying I don't believe you, but to me it doesn't seem that the initial problem with the relic was how the quests were, nor have I seen any input on making it a main-job investment from the start versus a starting weapon for a capped job. Beyond the first quest, the other 2 steps don't seem to reflect the player feedback by requiring you to go back to old dungeons (which the option of unsync being available) and going even further into 2.x hunts and beast tribes. Zodiac was able to accomplish players pacing themselves with the dungeon drops, high tome cost for the spring water, and GC costs for the cores. There's the tools available to make you do 3.x content at your own pace for the anima items...like the centaruo seals, diadem or even esotaric tomes if they had wanted you to focus on one character.

Edit : I'd also like a confirmation that the developers did indeed to intend for relics to not grow in power (and I mean just that, different from being stronger/as strong as raid weapons mind you). From my perspective of FF games, similiar equipment were always a case of "the weapon evolves with you" sort of deal, as was the case for pretty much any other mmo that has a unique/named weapon as a reward.

[kog985]

Maybe some of you guys need to play China MMO or Korea MMO for a long while to understand how the current state of FFXIV doesn't have much different than any those two, and what serious problem FFXIV need to recognize before it keeps falling down slowly year by year, and also to understand why "whining" people like us keep complaining something more better from FFXIV that itself, can, do more better instead of its current state.

We "whining" because we want it to be more good and we know it has more potential and can change, that is why we keep "whining" because of that reason. If your children being bad, you teach them and guide them to become a good person, because everyone want that to their children, right? No one want to see them become a thief or a serial killer at all. That is what we are doing the same thing to FFXIV. We have a lot of hope to FFXIV and to Yoshi-P and to SE.

Grinding is not a content, what we need from a content is always new and not repeat what old generation has done (the current example is ATMAs and Crystals, ATMAs is daddy and Crystals is his son). Relic can fix itself from not repeating the same old road like right now, but the development doesn't want to because if they want to change it, they ALREADY SHOWED us its new face from the day patch 3.15 note hit to the player base. What reason we can say to the development? Being not creative or being lazy in creative?

Diablo III has become a good example whenever I talked about how the game is become bad to good. Forum have a lot of dedication players that keep bringing out bad things and problems in the game to the development, and the development did listening and show to the player base their listening. What about FFXIV? Tbh I haven't seen that for quite a long time. Because if FFXIV did listening and showed to us, we will say "Wow! Amazing" or "You did a good job!" instead of "Whining" like this.

So before you guys saying those weak reasoning to us, I mean it, please think a bit more deeper. Us players love the game and want to see it become more better, that is why we raised our voice and will still raise our voice. If we doesn't care about it, we already left or abandon the game and doesn't wasted our times with you guys that really didn't see a single problem at this moment.

P/S: But i also have a little doubt to FFXIV because it's a Asia game, not a Europe or NA game, so I myself cannot say anything to the grinding because it was already in our Asian blood, we don't mind the grinding to be honest, but only if that the game came from our place (China MMO and Korea MMO). So no matter how hard i beg for them to not follow this road, i still know it will keep coming in the future and the future after that.

tl;dr: There isn't a tl;dr, start understanding for your own.

[Kallera]

Worth it:
A weapon that has something unique in addition its stats.(looks only go so far, when you ask a lot of people, eventually they'll want the weapon performance to match as well. And for 12's sake, did ya have to copy paste the number across all the weapons? Did ya think the folks that found out the maps in 1.0 wouldn't check?)
A weapon that isn't just tossed if it needs to be broke down for a new weapon. (That has to hurt for some folks, and kills the urge to customize)
Talking weapon? Can we talk to it?


Fun:
Doing a relic trial at some point that tests the skill of our role. A solo "gatekeeper" type trial would be ideal, but i can see a party trial working too.
Utilizing spiritbond or companion system to level up the weapon or give it that extra oomph in customizing.
Talking weapon? Can we talk to it and take it with us for its quips?
If older df runs are needed: alternative objective needed past clearing it(or a instance using the map begins after clearing it...)
If ex trials are needed: runner must lead a set party, stipulation akin to the primal wheel of doom at fanfest. (later on this can be nerfed to include standard primal ex runs.)

I'm open to other stuff, but mainly the end result should be something to look foward to, and maybe something we can take with us, because right now there not much that makes the relic stand out, it honestly sounds like a bad deal, not merely one born of Rowena and Gerolt to the main character, but one from SE to the players.

Grind or challenge, I think it has to have something interesting. Add something new or beyond the run we know too well, that would be of interest.

[Critical-Limit]

Let's keep the constructive posts going I find people's ideas interesting. If the other side has a problem with an idea it can be addressed. I think there is a possibility for a happy medium where we could** all have enjoyed the quest or at worse, find the grind worthwhile even if getting there is not fun, but knowing fun could come later.

I like the idea of unique stats. They could even test it out. Like what if one gave you a 2% chance to double attack? Or once in a while the monk one can proc a buffed version of haymaker that you can use in place of fracture during rotation. Could make a complete play style change which could be fun.

[RiceisNice]

..
I like the idea of unique stats. They could even test it out. Like what if one gave you a 2% chance to double attack? Or once in a while the monk one can proc a buffed version of haymaker that you can use in place of fracture during rotation. Could make a complete play style change which could be fun.

There's already a topic for making weapon stats more interesting, a lot of the discussion here is more oriented on making the quest itself more interesting and the design philosophy (or lack of) behind the anima.

That being said though, relic should not be the only weapons that have secondary effect.

[Critical-Limit]

There's already a topic for making weapon stats more interesting, a lot of the discussion here is more oriented on making the quest itself more interesting and the design philosophy (or lack of) behind the anima.

That being said though, relic should not be the only weapons that have secondary effect.

Obviously ANY idea you come up with to make the relic quest better, there is another thread for it. I'm talking about making ANIMA specifically interesting enough to make a "boring" grind if it must be boring, Worth it.

If we just give unique stats on relic weapons elsewhere that would take away it's specialty. Off topic but I think horizontal progression could be found in the materia system.

What i'm trying to get people to do is more productive than. "stop being negative, take a break." vs "quit being a white knight" endless cycle. But your right Ill just go elsewhere.

[Belhi]

Obviously ANY idea you come up with to make the relic quest better, there is another thread for it. I'm talking about making ANIMA specifically interesting enough to make a "boring" grind if it must be boring, Worth it.

If we just give unique stats on relic weapons elsewhere that would take away it's specialty. Off topic but I think horizontal progression could be found in the materia system.

What i'm trying to get people to do is more productive than. "stop being negative, take a break." vs "quit being a white knight" endless cycle. But your right Ill just go elsewhere.

Making the Relic unique in any way that benefits game play will be a problem because it will take the relic from being optional and make it a requirement to a lot of people. That's not something SE wants. They want the relic to be rewarding but at the same time not something a raider feels they have to get.

The relic's purpose is to allow a way for people to earn high lvl weapons through investing time rather than tackling the very highest difficulty. The relics were never really intended to be better in any way than top tier raid gear.