you guys went overboard with this new relic

[Terribad]

Snip

Going to need you people to make up your mind. First you guys say people can't complain about not having anything to do if they don't complete ALL content. Now people are saying "don't do the content" um what?
How about instead of expecting people to not play a game they pay for. They can stop killing content as soon as it comes out.

[Kaurie]

Is there a reason why the horizantal gear couldn't be...crafted? Or maybe from doing the new dungeons released each patch. And the new gear, while being the same ilvl, gives (for example) tanks vit and dps ss and healers crit in exchange for other stats, and in the meantime the Ex primal for the patch has evil tank busters that require the vit tank + heal crit to survive, with astacking debuff or something that requires the ss on the dps? I think that would work? Is there a problem you forsee that I'm missing? (honestly)

That was the relics can continue to be +10 ilvl, making the Ex primal a little less butt-clenching, for those who are willing to grind. This should also be good for raid composition, I think. Some people would have the highest tier dungeon gear, others the relics, each bringing a unique advantage to the encounter.

Some added horizontal progression would be nice, but they would need to rework the stats and/or add new stats.

Currently, secondary stats are very insignificant compared to the main stat. CRIT is particularly unpredictable, and if there was a heal check that 'required' a crit, that would suck for the 75% of the time that you don't crit.

Roughly stat weights are ~11.0 Weapon Damage, 1.0 Main stat, 0.1 (+/- 0.05) secondary stats. So if you had the relic be 10 ilvls higher, it would likely do 5ish weapon damage more (equivalent of 55 main stat) + have a higher main stat. In order for secondary stats to make up for that (assuming you want non relic weapons to not be obsolete) they would need to be roughly over 6000. [forgive me if my math is off, I couldn't sleep last night. So tired]

Personally, I'd like to see some more unique and fun stats come.

[KaitlanKela]

Well, to be fair, it is a Massive-Multiplayer game. Some people have said they like the grind, others that they don't but it's understandable. I'm of the latter opinion (with the caveat that the weapon itself is a little...odd considering the investment, if anything they need to rework the reward, not the risk). Some people think it's terrible content and they don't want to do it. With this many people, you can't please everyone. There is lots of content. You'd literally have to find nothing fun to not enjoy the game at all. There are a lot of things SE could do better. A LOT. But that doesn't mean that the game is unplayable to a majority of subscribers.

It would help if SE would take suggestions to heart more.

[Stanelis]

Well, to be fair, it is a Massive-Multiplayer game. Some people have said they like the grind, others that they don't but it's understandable.

WoW made MMORPG popular by removing most of the hardcore grinds found in older games.

You say that a lot of player enjoy FFXIV, but for some reasons, I don't expect that popularity to last if SE keeps going with what they do since the beginning of heavensward.

[Kallera]

Um, I'm at least making suggestions (several, in fact) and having a conversation. You are...well, I'm not exactly sure what this was supposed to be but I don't think it was constructive.

There is having faith in the dev team, and then there is "drinking the kool-aid".

I don't see the work involved in the relic being the solution to the problems with content so far. And now people are being asked, to run it all over again.

You want suggestions? Atma is not liked, and the amount of worked being asked is extreme. Much is made about players wasting time with each other, whether it be through rotations, inability to learn, or a general sense of progress.

This is an huge investment of time, resources, and patience.

I want to know that this new hell is worth what is at the end. Since the 2.0 relic, imo, regularly wasn't, and by intentional design from the devs, wasn't.

[KaitlanKela]

Some added horizontal progression would be nice, but they would need to rework the stats and/or add new stats.

Kaurie!!! <3 <3

Wow, thank you for the math. That was very helpful.

We could see new stats come, or we could change the multipliers on the stats there are. Or, hell, they would throw +6000 crit on my codex and synch it to normal values for older content. It's just a number. All options good. Anything to keep the relic relevant given the investment. Heck, if they subsequent content for progression the weapon after you get it was cool enough, that would be reward enough, even if the weapon was the same as raiding. Put some new primals behind it, or some elaborate dungeons, or really epic side-story. Something.

I want to know that this new hell is worth what is at the end. Since the 2.0 relic, imo, regularly wasn't, and by intentional design wasn't.

Actually, I'm beginning to think we agree. Rework the reward and keep it relevant for longer. That's the design that needs to be changed.

You're convinced it won't, and I still have faith that it might. I don't think I'm 'drinking the kool-aid' as you put it, mainly because I'm going to wait a patch before I start on this to see if there IS any change. I'm not plowing blindly ahead here.

And, that's it for me. I've hit my post limit today. Good discussion

[Kaurie]

Kekela <3

I'd say that I am most in favour of them adding new and interesting stats, and keeping the rest as is. They could increase secondary stat modifiers a bit, but ultimately I'd rather have something more interesting
For example, maybe they could add to (for Summoner weapons):

1. Thordan EX Weapon: Receives 1 extra Aetherflow stack when using Aetherflow
2. Gordian Savage Weapon: Reduces cooldowns of abilities by 15%
3. Relic Weapon: Increases duration of Dreadwyrm Trance by 9 seconds

Or whatever, something that changes how you do your rotation. Yes, I imagine one of the above will provide the most damage output. Guess what, out of the current weapons, 1 already does provide the most damage output as is the most favoured. This would at least make things a bit more interesting.

Other ways they can add interesting stats:

1. Thordan EX Weapon: Has a 10% Chance to Summon a Thordan Egi for 10 seconds on the use of Fester
2. Gordian Savage Weapon: Has a 30% chance to summon all 3 Egi's when entering Dreadwyrm Trance (or Maybe just Garuda/Ifrit, as Titan may cause enmity issues) for duration of Dreadwyrm Trance.
3. Relic Weapon: Rouse's damage modifier is doubled and adds a spell speed buff to the pet as well


EDIT: I forgot to come up with ideas for the Eso weapon as well (which is funny, because that is what I am using right now), but you get the idea.

[TwilitChesh]

Does, er, everyone just sort of forget that the point of the game is to enjoy yourself in the game? I can understand the promise of rewards is a great motivating factor, but if this is such a grind to you, then...? Like... the playing portion of the game is using your skills, being tactical, having fun or absurd moments in large groups while everyone tries to coordinate with their various abilities and jobs. I can get it, really, getting burned out from quickly aging content and wanting more stuff, new stuff, shinier stuff, but...?

I'm so confused.

If you don't enjoy actually playing the game and the only reason you'd keep playing is for something new to be presented to you? It's silly. I'm coming over from WoW, myself (though for distaste of its lore more than game-play reasons) and I find this entire argument so odd. The game is so cool, the abilities and jobs and stuff are so cool, it's so fun to heal and to dps and to tank and to do what you want and be what you want and? not everything has to be focused on how quickly you can max out your stuff and sit in a town doing nothing because your Glamour is exactly how you want it and for some reason you don't like pressing your really neat looking and fun to use skills anymore?

:C Yes, SE should be better about making more engaging content, but the stuff they're asking for the grind is stuff you would or should likely be doing anyways because you enjoy the game and you want to because it's fun for you, not just because of what you're getting from it. It's still a video game, in the end, and if you're not having fun with the actual playing part of the game I'm not sure what solace to give you.

[Xenosan]

Sorry I wrote a book.. do u dare read?

Something I wanted to go a little more broad with, but comes in response to this comment:

There's just no innovation. It's just a cash grab and hook at this point as they're afraid to do anything new

This grind isn't arbitrary. It's a strategy of theirs that they use to compensate for the dystopian phases that their vertical progression model leaves in it's wake.

I think they waited to release HW's Relic because they wanted to monitor post-3.0 player activity, and then use the relic quest-line to force repopulation of older content on the progression ladder: they want the player community to repopulate older or non-lucrative content. Alex N being a big example. They want that DF Queue active for new 60s to get step-stone gear towards ESO despite it's abhorrent token system and the lack of appeal it's gear has for many (most) people who have leap-frogged over it (or plan to).

The grind is their way of knocking the community down the vertical progression ladder back into fate-grinding, dungeon-running, Beast Tribe Questing, and ALEX N farming: ensuring an active community presence for newer players. I've recently lvled two alts to 55ish due to endgame boredom.. Duty Finder does the job, but still there is a tangible awareness of an empty open-world when doing content after 2.0-2.1 through 3.05. FFXIV feels dystopian at many phases throughout these and some other areas (I thought, at least. My 2nd ALT didn't get a single FC invite; unloved ;_; ).

IMO these sort of grinds are fine IF they season the vertical progression with a little sand-box, player-driven world building. Nothing detrimental to their vertical model, but something that gives an extra incentive for end-game (or I'd argue more accurately dubbed 'post-game') players to go back and do former content.

A Beast Tribe example, if interested:

If beast tribes had regional influence - Where more active Beast Tribes (active meaning more players are completing that Tribes Quests than others) gain influence that expands their Tribal Influence to surrounding zones - possibly opening up Tribe-Specific Vendors at certain regional border outpost like South Shroud's Camp Tranquil <-> East Thanalan's Camp Drybone.

So if an FC rigorously grind Amalj'aa, that tribe's influence could push into South Shroud.. An Amalj'aa vendor replaces the Ixal/Slyph vendor at Camp Tranquil and that rare Amalj'aa vendor sells rare Tribe furnishings, mount, or glamours (but these rare items also require the appropriate Tribe Ranking to purchase)..

But, alongside that aspect also add bonus rewards to Beast Tribe Quests for Tribes if/when they are being pushed out of their default territory. The bonus could be an extra 10%-20% reputation reward, sizeable gil bonus, double venture rewards, etc. (so in this example, if Amalj'aa took South Shroud from the default Ixal/Slyph, doing quest for Ixal or Slyph would provide bonus Rep, Gil, etc until either one of those Tribes reclaim South Shroud from the Amalj'aa. Further, if players keep pushing with Slyph/Ixal they could take Camp Drybone from Amalj'aa: opening up a rare Ixal/Slyph vendor at that Outpost until Amal'jaa reclaims it).

Maybe even a similar open-world mechanic for Grand Companies, making the GC-alliance of your Free Company actually relevant for example. I guess what I'm trying to say it's not a problem of new content VS recycled content. It's the model that encompasses all content. All content, new or old, are just more rungs on the vertical ladder.

And the relic quest is a very transparent aspect of vertical progression SE uses to repopulate previous phases. It's necessary, I just wish they were less transparent about it or would add open-world mechanics like the above that provide an extra incentive to step back down the ladder.

..Sorry I wrote a book.. But that's how I feel on this Questline and more-so FFXIV in general at present, had to get it off my chest.

[Riki_Namu]

WoW made MMORPG popular by removing most of the hardcore grinds found in older games.

You say that a lot of player enjoy FFXIV, but for some reasons, I don't expect that popularity to last if SE keeps going with what they do since the beginning of heavensward.

WoW lost millions for making it too casual. Many of them ended up here.