Atmas.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

So the best option would be to not offer money at all, because then the mountain climber would climb for the heck of it anyway because he loves it, while the other person who didn't want to go up that mountain in the first place just stays where he enjoys himself more.

Heard that response before, but let's not kid ourselves. This is an MMO; regardless of how much you love to do anything - raiding, grinding, etc. - you do it with an end goal or reward in mind. And the mountain in this case is the path to said reward, if perhaps you missed that in the metaphor. So staying put does someone no good. Or would you be saying that perhaps you'd engage in the atma grind purely for the sake of doing so? No reward, no weapon, just a grind. Am I to understand that's what you're saying there?

As it stands, by now I'm well aware that I can't speak my peace (or lack thereof) regarding relics, new or old without stepping on toes. So I will choose silence, if only once I say this:

I (and plenty others) are WELL aware, SE, that you have simply rehashed a type of content that was very ill met the first time. Perhaps you did it with good intent, perhaps you simply did it to create a time sink. But many of us cannot and will not ignore the fact that you have chosen to retrace your steps and ultimately void an opportunity to try to do something better or more creative. Personally speaking, whether I ever complete this particular relic within the 3.0 patch cycle or not, I will no longer show any interest in relic content in future expansions. My faith in your decisions regarding such content is well in question, if at all present, and so long as alternatives are available, I will choose the alternatives without second thought. If ever alternatives are no longer available, I would then consider whether I might continue to further play this game I enjoy.

[Zojha]

Or would you be saying that perhaps you'd engage in the atma grind purely for the sake of doing so?

Frankly: No. Because that grind isn't fun. But for most of my games on Steam, my ultimate reward is to make everything I did obsolete as the credits roll down and the game ends. And frankly, I still try to reach the end, despite knowing this. Because it's fun.

And that is the core issue IMO. The problem is not with the rewards, the problem is that the way isn't fun. Don't kid yourself thinking you "love" doing something if you only do it for an end goal or reward.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

And that is the core issue IMO. The problem is not with the rewards, the problem is that the way isn't fun. Don't kid yourself thinking you "love" doing something if you only do it for an end goal or reward.

I think you may have misinterpreted me there. And to be honest, I raid because I actually do love raiding. The rewards just give me more reason to stick with it. Even if they are ultimately eclipsed or perhaps guaranteed to be inferior once we reach the end of the road. Sometimes it's more headache than fun, but overall the challenge, or rather learning how to and ultimately overcoming the challenge is where the fun comes in. I think it's safe to say if it's not fun, people probably don't love it. We at least agree that it's not fun, and that's fine. More than anything, I'd like SE to come to understand that and perhaps revisit their approach in the future.

Time will tell.

[Zojha]

I think you may have misinterpreted me there.

Quite possible. To me, it's just important to note that people not doing a piece of content is not an issue with the rewards of said content, but rather the content itself. "Fun" is an intrinsic reward after all and the need for a different reward only arises if "fun" is absent. I thus get easily triggered when people talk about rewards not being "worth it".