Random Query: The Trinity System

[Defias]

So the goal here is really just to have a (unlikely...but I'm trying anyways...) friendly discussion/musing on the Trinity System in this game.

Simply put:
Do you believe FFXIV should keep the Trinity System?
Or
Should it adopt the model where every class is self-sufficient?

Once you've decided, please explain why you went with your choice.
For the sake of discussion lets assume the game can be changed.
This is to rule out the: "The game engine/architecture won't allow such a change." Responses.
Obviously this is a legit response. But it makes for a boring conversation.

Both paths have pros and cons.
To begin the conversation...I'll list pros to changing to a system of self-sufficiency.
Pros:
- Combat becomes completely reliant on player skill & strategy.
- Everyone can be the class they desire. A true end to: "___ job should be ___ role."
- No longer will folks debate on ___ role needing to do ___. (Ex: Healers must do dmg in addition to healing. Tanks must do ___.) As Damage mitigation, damage dealing, & Healing will be more or less each player's responsibility and not 1 roles.

Cons:
- Class diversity will probably take a hit to keep balance.
- Group gameplay will lack synergy as everyone can and probably will do whatever they want.
- Possibly no longer a reason to group with others.

IMO the pros outweigh the cons. But *shrug* eitherway I'm fine. Just curious to what others think.

Edit: Just noticed my horrible Title.
Wasn't paying attention to the autocorrect when I made this thread.

Edit 2:
I hear Guild Wars 2 uses a Self-sufficient system. Can anyone speak/elaborate on how group play works with that game?

[Kio]

I miss support roles that aren't these pseudo hybrids. Would it work? I don't know. The game is designed that everyone can solo content in the open world, and I wouldn't want to lose out on that.

[Saccharin]

So the goal here is really just to have a (unlikely...but I'm trying anyways...) friendly discussion/musing on the Trinity System in this game.

While the trinity isn't perfect but it means you can have much more interesting encounters.

If you have no tank them you have to make sure bosses dont hit too hard and any damage can't be too frequent as you dont have a dedicated healer to mop up. There also can't be any type of dps check since you have to heal and tank yourself.

I miss support roles that aren't these pseudo hybrids. Would it work? I don't know. The game is designed that everyone can solo content in the open world, and I wouldn't want to lose out on that.

Support roles exist for the sake of support roles. A support role provides nothing original and just adds unneeded complexity.

If a support role adds a debuff then you need to tune the boss because of the debuff or it becomes too easy. Can't existing tanks have that as a cooldown? Maybe support could add some heals , well can't a healer do that.

Considering raids are 8 man it would mean losing one damage dealer so to make up for that, and more, the buffs would need to be huge.

The little support we have at the moment is more than enough. Bards songs are useful but in no way needed.

[Tint]

While the trinity isn't perfect but it means you can have much more interesting encounters.

If you have no tank them you have to make sure bosses dont hit too hard and any damage can't be too frequent as you dont have a dedicated healer to mop up. There also can't be any type of dps check since you have to heal and tank yourself.

the key here is active dodging. i am playing right now a game where you can dodge every attack. and one attack hits for 50% to 100% of your HP and you can heal yourself 10 times for around 20% of your max HP. you don't need any dps checks because surviving alone is the skill check. no red circles, no visible cast bar... this works fine without trinity.
but to remove the trinity FF14 they have to rework the whole game. and they sure will not do that. but what we have right now is something in beteween. you need a tank and a healer. but as a tank or healer you have nothing to do, so you are just making damage...

[AlphaFox]

the key here is active dodging. i am playing right now a game where you can dodge every attack. and one attack hits for 50% to 100% of your HP and you can heal yourself 10 times for around 20% of your max HP. you don't need any dps checks because surviving alone is the skill check. no red circles, no visible cast bar... this works fine without trinity.

Sounds like your talking about SkyForge, which regardless if your not is a game that doesn't even have a healing class (least last I played) its just Tank, 2 dps and 2 support in the dungeons and honestly it can be brutal. However that game to me IS a massive DPS check cus if the mobs don't die quick then your tank is dead and so will the rest of the team, sure active dodging but...still felt you were getting hit regardless of how well you think your dodging. The one thing they did do right (I guess to some people) is you can pretty much join in on any game and actually level sync up if the other two are vastly higher level.

On the topic, I'd actually like them to try a 4 role team even if its only for testing and see how people react, we don't always have to stay on the old ideals.

[Canadane]

Support roles exist for the sake of support roles. A support role provides nothing original and just adds unneeded complexity.

You act like this is a bad thing.

[Saccharin]

Support roles exist for the sake of support roles. A support role provides nothing original and just adds unneeded complexity.

If a support role adds a debuff then you need to tune the boss because of the debuff or it becomes too easy. Can't existing tanks have that as a cooldown? Maybe support could add some heals , well can't a healer do that.

Considering raids are 8 man it would mean losing one damage dealer so to make up for that, and more, the buffs would need to be huge.

The little support we have at the moment is more than enough. Bards songs are useful but in no way needed.

You act like this is a bad thing.

And the rest of the quote said why.

[Dzian]

Support roles exist for the sake of support roles. A support role provides nothing original and just adds unneeded complexity.

A little complexity is fine, the issue right now is that there is no real trinity or anything everything is dps and that's why the only thing you ever need to clear anything is enough dps.

buffs / debuffs aren't really necessary like you said here

The little support we have at the moment is more than enough. Bards songs are useful but in no way needed.

and I also mentioned in another thread skills like blunt arrow, legsweep shield swipe are all completely unnecessary as debuffs and only ever used as a dps increase.

Crowd control tactics don't exist either, sleep, repose, bind, heavy, etc all of which are completely worthless.

Damage mitigation isn't really necessary either which is why paladins seem to be in a pretty bad way recently and why everyones using warriors / dark knights because the only thing that really matters is DPS.

[Defias]

On the topic of Hybrids. I am actually against them.
As in WOW it created a situation where honestly everyone was DPS no one wanted to CC, Tank, or Heal.
Tanks and to some extent Healers are rare enough as is currently allow them the option to go pure dps and I don't even want to think about Queue times.

IMO if you're going to allow hybrids/everyone the option to DPS you might as well just let us be self-sufficient.
Atleast then you can still group/go through content.

Seeing as MMORPGs are about playing together there should be group content. Just being self-sufficient would not imo "kill" group content. But I feel it might redufe the ire and toxicity that seems to be flowing from group content.
My issues with the Trinity system is that it turns into the blame game, and folks seem/tend to dislike the role their favorite class/job is given.

That said Trinity often creates a balanced gameplay system.
I have not played GW2 (which I hear does not use the Trinity System.) I wonder how combat works there.

[Caitlyn]

Blade and Soul actually have no Trinity System. As far as I know every class is a DPS-Class. Finding people for a group is much faster, because you dont need to a specific class to fill the group. There are also exceptions here, but combat is just like: "Beat the crap out of it, but beware of mechanics". I think that most classes got their own selfheals and potions.

It would be too drastic to remove the holy trinity system from FFXIV. Its ok to have fixed roles for each class, but sometimes I wished to have much more variety in each class (skill trees or something). On the other hand, its annoying to have people like "Do DMG as WHM" or "Supporter-Class sucks". At the moment, 90% of its content is still based on Damage rather than playing the actual job.