Why does Clemency get interrupted? And why does Sword/Shield Oath reset combo?

[Launched]

confused babbling

No, you don't know how tank stances work. It doesn't matter that I compared Rampart to Defiance, it provides the same amount of mitigation as Shield Oath. Shield Oath is a 2520%reduction in damage, which equals a 25% increase in eHP, which equals the eHP WAR gains from Defiance.

More HP per heal is completely irrelevant, because WAR is recovering a lower percentage of its eHP on every heal compared to a PLD. A 2k Cure on a 16k PLD is 12.5% of the PLD's HP. A 2k Cure on a 20k WAR gets buffed to 2.4k, which is only 12%. That's a lower heal for the WAR. A 4k Lustrate on that PLD is 25% of its HP, on WAR it doesn't get buffed so it's 4k out of 20k: 20%. That's a pretty significant difference in healing. The number you see on the screen doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is eHP after all your defensive buffs, and it's a fact that WAR receives less healing compared to their eHP than PLD does.

[Kosmos992k]

No, you don't know how tank stances work. It doesn't matter that I compared Rampart to Defiance, it provides the same amount of mitigation as Shield Oath. Shield Oath is a 25% reduction in damage, which equals a 25% increase in eHP, which equals the eHP WAR gains from Defiance.

Um....isn't Shield Oath a 20% reduction in damage, not 25%.

Reduces damage received by 20% and increases enmity,
while lowering damage dealt by 20%.
Increases accuracy by 5%.
Cannot be used with Sword Oath.
Effect ends upon reuse.

Your math that followed may need adjustment.

[Giantbane]

IComparing stances (using your example), SwO provides 20% increase in eHp, resulting in an additional 3200 Hp on a 16k tank. Even if we’re assuming that the War has the same starting Hp (impossible unless under-geared, but whatever), Defiance (at 25%) provides 4000 eHp. This is not immediate, but is easily fixed by one cure II, especially with a 20% in healing. I’m assuming this discrepancy is why you chose to ignore ShO and compare Rampart, but we weren’t comparing def CD’s. We were comparing stances. If you have to bring in CD’s to compensate for a discrepancy, than that should have given you a hint right there that War’s Stance Dance is beneficial.

No, he was right.

effective health
You're a WAR, you have 16k base HP, turn on Defiance and the healer tops you off. Defiance gives you 25% more HP so you now have 16k x 1.25 = 20k HP. You get hit with a 20k attack, and you just barely die. 20k eHP, right? Ok, I know you've got that (you even said so above).

You're a PLD, you've got 16k HP and ShO on. You get hit by an attack for 20k. That 20k gets reduced by ShO, so 20k x 0.8 = 16k. So you just barely die. It's exactly the same as the warrior above. You die after exactly 20k worth of incoming damage (before it's reduced by ShO). That's what eHP is, how much damage you take before you die. The tricky thing about mitigation when calculating eHP is that it works in reverse. Here's the formula from above:

eHP x mitigation = base HP

but we want to know how to calculate eHP from base HP, so we convert it to:

eHP = base HP / mitigation

or

eHP = base HP x 1/mitigation

so from 16k base HP, to get the eHP you either divide that 16k by the 0.8 (shield oath mitigation) or you multiply it by the inverse of the mitigation. In this case 1/0.8 is 1.25. Which means that 20% mitigation results in a 25% increase in eHP.

effective healing

basically this:

Sorry Februs that isnt how it works

Pld - 1000 damage hit - 800 damage taken - 800 heal required
War - 1000 damage taken - healed by 960 (800×1.20)

War is 40 HP less than the PLD given equal standings.

If you receive, as a PLD with ShO up, a 1000 hp hit, you only actually take 800 hp of damage. And thus, you only need 800 hp of heals to recover completely from that original 1000 hp hit. So while the healer is actually healing you for 800 hp. You are effectively recovering from 1000 hp damage taken.

The math basically ends up the same.

effective healing coefficient = 1.0 / mitigation

So for ShO, again it's 1.0 / 0.8 = 1.25. Thus ShO provides a 25% boost to effective healing.

[Launched]

Um....isn't Shield Oath a 20% reduction in damage, not 25%.
Your math that followed may need adjustment.

20% damage reduction = 25% increased HP.

[Ironos]

No, you don't know how tank stances work. It doesn't matter that I compared Rampart to Defiance, it provides the same amount of mitigation as Shield Oath. Shield Oath is a 25% reduction in damage, which equals a 25% increase in eHP, which equals the eHP WAR gains from Defiance.

You explicitly say Shield Oath is a 25% reduction in damage which equals a 25% increase in eHP, which is not true. I'm not sure if this was just a typo or what.

[Launched]

You explicitly say Shield Oath is a 25% reduction in damage which equals a 25% increase in eHP, which is not true. I'm not sure if this was just a typo or what.

Oops. Should be 20% for Shield Oath.

[Kosmos992k]

20% damage reduction = 25% increased HP.

I understand your point, it depends on which end of the calculation you are looking at it from.

However, I was specifically replying to this

Shield Oath is a 25% reduction in damage

I get your point about the impact of a 20% reduction of incoming damage. I see your reply a few posts after my original with a correction, that's all I was after.

I have to admit however that on first glance when I saw Shield oath as a 25% reduction in damage equaling a 25% increase in eHP, I hadn't done the math, I was simply reacting to the %.

[Februs]

No, you don't know how tank stances work. It doesn't matter that I compared Rampart to Defiance, it provides the same amount of mitigation as Shield Oath. Shield Oath is a 2520%reduction in damage, which equals a 25% increase in eHP, which equals the eHP WAR gains from Defiance.

And now your original comment makes much more sense.

I will have to concede that I misunderstood your original post and was incorrect. When you said that it was a "20% reduced dmg from rampart," I mistakenly assumed you had all your numbers wrong. Worse yet, when I worked out the mitigation for ShO I made the mistake of applying ShO's mitigation directly to the Pld health pool instead of incoming dmg. This was extra stupid of me, since I myself said I was distinguishing between mitigated dmg and Hp gained. This was my mistake. You are correct.

More HP per heal is completely irrelevant

I already agreed with you in my previous post that War's receive less Hp per heal, despite healing at a faster rate. I did not argue against the fact that Pld's receive greater returns from heals in regards to their eHp (though I admit that I was undervaluing that amount). However, I still don't think that means that the amount of Hp restored is in any way irrelevant. To a healer, it's anything but irrelevant. Pld's passive Oath mitigation still provides an advantage so far as they are actually mitigating dmg, but (and I may be wrong on this so feel free to correct me) shouldn't War's be receiving their healing bonus regardless of continued mitigation (say downtime during cast bars, jumps, or Cooldown phases etc). Not to mention the fact that War's self-healing should more than compensate for any advantage ShO gives to effective healing of eHp ... or am I incorrect on that one as well?

[VanilleFang]

Healing WAR vs PLD

There was actually a thread in the Healer Forum before Heavensward hit where everyone was discussing which of the two tank classes they like to heal more. Most people said PLD because of the impact healing seems to have on their HP bar vs. a WAR's. No body really said they disliked healing WARs but that the larger HP pool made is appear that they needed to be healed more often.

[Februs]

There was actually a thread in the Healer Forum before Heavensward hit where everyone was discussing which of the two tank classes they like to heal more. Most people said PLD because of the impact healing seems to have on their HP bar vs. a WAR's. No body really said they disliked healing WARs but that the larger HP pool made is appear that they needed to be healed more often.

I only recently started healing. I agree with this, but I'm actually a little torn on it. In a lot of ways, Pld's seem much easier to heal, but after a Tank buster or during a quite spell in a boss fight watching a War's Hp bar get a sudden jump is ... relaxing, I guess. I feel less panicked about their Hp bar because it shoots back up quickly. I also find I have to heal them less than Pld's because, despite their higher Hp bar, they self-heal so efficiently that I'm not always needed.

I guess the difference is that Pld's feel like they need a constant, but very steady, rate of healing. Whereas Wars need a bunch of healing ... and then you can take a break whenever they use Equilibrium or you see Bloodbath in their hotbar.