Strength Tanks

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

Quite frankly when the entirety of enmity mechanics is based purely on attack power and damage, and PLD's not only have the lowest damage of any class even when optimized for DPS, but the lowest hate modifiers of any tank, yeah there are just some hurdles that can't be avoided. Now if they actually put some value into VIT outside of just meeting a tankbuster threshold yeah sure, but when the devs build the game around a DPS meta, people can cry and moan all they want about VIT it just doesn't serve any real application beyond an hp barrier.

The issue with Paladin DPS is the way the class is designed, and the potencies of its skills. It is not the damage multiplier that makes the difference. Every tank piece has the same amount of VIT on it, so changing how tanks calculate damage to VIT changes nothing for paladin – it will still remain in 3rd on the DPS chart.

There's certainly truth that of the 3 tanks, if you're -going- to have a tank go full vit and pure brick wall, Paladin is the tank that suffers least from it. Provided you dont nerf your threat into the ground, a full vit full fending paladin will be less "bad" than DRK/WAR simply because so much of those jobs' power and utility comes from their higher dps and their dps-into-self-healing conversion. Plus on trash pulls the Paladin relies on Flash a reasonable amount, so the lack of damage stats doesnt affect them as much as it would nerf a Warrior's overpower or DRK's abyssal/salted.

Not condoning it of course, as Strength is still the optimal way to go. But if you're someone who for some reason -really- wants to be a low damage uber health brick wall tank, Paladin is the one that pulls it off best relative to the effectiveness they lose from not going Strength.

I would be willing to bet that the damage all tanks do going from full STR to full VIT would reduce by the same amount (per class) If a full STR WAR does 20% more damage than a full STR PLD, it will be the same ration on full VIT builds.

Like Aomine said, I used to stack 2 VIT accessories and 3 STR. But this was back in 2.x when secondary stats meant more, and the amount of HP needed to survive the tank buster was more than my present left side gear could handle. (this was the poor man’s version of the fully pentamelded right side). Since my left side gear gives me all the HP I need for raid, I no longer wear VIT accessories.

[Syzygian]

Yeah I second the above. There isn't a tank out there that suffers/gains differently from going between str/vit. PLD doesn't "use vit better". The only place these decisions make a difference in a way that differs between the tanks is on DRK and WAR who have DPS-based self-heals. And if you're playing DRK, you could argue that out of all the tanks DRK suffers the least from being stuck with parry pieces during progression. The differences stop there though. PLD isn't some innately tankier tank that somehow benefits from VIT more than the others.

[Februs]

PLD isn't some innately tankier tank that somehow benefits from VIT more than the others.

If anything, you could argue that it's just the opposite. The nature of Pld's cooldowns (especially Rampart and Sentinel) and passive mitigation (Natural block-rate/Bulwark/Awareness), make them more equipped to need less Hp. This was the same in the 2.X days. Pld's could forgo Vit Gear because their strength as a tank is not in having more Hp to sacrifice against Tank Busters, but rather in mitigating incoming dmg and reducing the burden on the healer.

This was far more noticeable in 2.x days (before Clemency), but people seem to forget that, unlike Warriors, Pld's really don't have a means of restoring their own HP pool. They were completely reliant on Healers to keep them alive (and widely still are). If you're a Pld and you want to make things easier on your healer, than your interests should be in mitigating the dmg before you take the hit rather than soaking it with a bigger Hp pool and trying to make it back. In that regard, Vit accessories don't really do much (short of providing you a little more buff for Stoneskin). Proper use of your CD's are a better alternative.

[Syzygian]

If anything, you could argue that it's just the opposite. The nature of Pld's cooldowns (especially Rampart and Sentinel) and passive mitigation (Natural block-rate/Bulwark/Awareness), make them more equipped to need less Hp.

See, I wouldn't argue this either. Because blocks usurp parry procs as opposed to coexisting with them, and math done early in the xpac seems to suggest that WAR and to a greater extent DRK have *slightly* higher innate parry rates, if PLD does in fact have greater passive mitigation its by like, 1%.

Rampart doesn't extend to PLD anything that IB or Shadowskin doesn't, and the extra 10% of Sentinel is paltry compared to the huge uptime of Vengeance. IB's 6s every 15-20 is actually WAY higher uptime than 20s every 90s. Shadow Wall is weaker than Sentinel yes, but the rest of DRK's native CDs, including Reprisal, have HUGE uptime. Imagine if you took 10% of Sentinel's 40% for 10s every 180s, and gave it to PLDs for 20s every 30s, 40 or so if parry rng is bad. That's kinda what DRK has.

[Februs]

See, I wouldn't argue this either. Because blocks usurp parry procs as opposed to coexisting with them, and math done early in the xpac seems to suggest that WAR and to a greater extent DRK have *slightly* higher innate parry rates, if PLD does in fact have greater passive mitigation its by like, 1%.

I singled these out because of the idea that a Pld's block strength and block rate are capable of being manipulated without the use of a Cooldown. Depending on the shield used, the efficiency of a Pld's block can far exceed the innate parry rates of War's and Drks, not to mention the addition of Shelltron which can force a block regardless of rates once every 30 seconds (so practically whenever a Pld feels they need it).

Rampart doesn't extend to PLD anything that IB or Shadowskin doesn't, and the extra 10% of Sentinel is paltry compared to the huge uptime of Vengeance. IB's 6s every 15-20 is actually WAY higher uptime than 20s every 90s. Shadow Wall is weaker than Sentinel yes, but the rest of DRK's native CDs, including Reprisal, have HUGE uptime. Imagine if you took 10% of Sentinel's 40% for 10s every 180s, and gave it to PLDs for 20s every 30s, 40 or so if parry rng is bad. That's kinda what DRK has.

You misunderstand what I was getting at. I'm was not referring to the overall uptime of the CD, or even the overall defense of the CD over the course of the entire fight. My comment was referring to the utility of a one and done CD that can and will efficiently mitigate a Tank Buster preventing the need for additional Hp to be regenerated by self-healing or a Healer.

In that regard, War's IB does not even come close to comparing because of the short duration and requirement of the Infuriated status. Even if a War is good enough to manage their Wrath flawlessly (which is entirely possible, but still oddly rare), it does not change the fact that the overall mitigation of a War is based on soaking the dmg with a high Hp pool (even higher with Thrill of Battle) and then healing it back. In terms of actually mitigating the overall dmg suffered, its not the same as a Pld or Drk. What Rampart extends to a Pld over IB to a War is time in the form of duration. Rampart completely covers the before, during and after dmg of a Tank Buster. IB does not. War's closest CD to mitigation of Rampart (in regards to high spike dmg, not overall dmg) is Vengeance. but even that move has a shorter duration and a longer CD, so it can not be used to the same efficiency as Rampart for covering Burst dmg.

Drk has, by far, a much more comparable defensive kit to Pld's than Wars, and I would argue the nature of their mitigation is the same. They focus on mitigating over soaking. However, what sets them apart is moves like Shelltron and Clemency (and even Stoneskin, technically). These are single use mitigation that a Pld can invoke at practically any time they want (short of spamming them) that can effectively eliminate the threat of a Tank Buster when used efficiently. Further, they are stack-able with any defensive CD a Pld can use aside from Bulwark (Shelltron+ Bulwark = The hell did you waste Bulwark for?).

Now, does this mean that they have higher overall defense? Heck no. Does it mean that they have a higher frequency of mitigation? ABSOLUTELY NOT. But their CD's are essentially designed for Burst Dmg mechanics, and make the implementation of additional Hp more redundant than it might be on War or Drk. Drk is by far more comparable, but they don't have the same Vit stats as War or Pld in the first place and are missing those lovely TB specific utility moves that Pld can take advantage of ... Though, to be fair, Pld's TB utility moves are often more difficult to successfully implement than War's IB (Clemency, I'm looking at you).

[Lemuel81]

If tanks use cooldown properly and doesnt fail mechanics, no reason to run with more HP than needed to survive tank busters. Its a waste imo (there may be very few exceptions of coarse) Growing tired of the whole "tanks shouldnt dps, healers shouldnt dps mentality. Some of us like to try and excel in their job and not be lazy >.>

And while dps does help with threat, really shouldnt be a concern. Alot of tanks dont cycle through mobs they just stand on one target.

[Sapphidia]

Just to clarify my thought on Paladin with Vit - in terms of single target DPS, yep, all tanks benefit identically from Strength. If you're talking about a single boss and purely using DPS as a judge, then yes, all tanks have parity.

However - DRK and WAR both have a LOT more self healing that's tied to their damage output (inner beast, extended Bloodbath, Souleater, DA Abyssal), whereas paladins purely have a crossclassed Bloodbath. Thus they're losing less survivability from doing less damage. In addition, their AOE tanking relies much more heavily on Flash which does -zero- damage, so in an AOE situation you wont really notice much difference between a STR and a VIT PLD, but you'd notice HUGE difference between the output of the DRK/WAR.

In a single target boss raid situation, there's not much difference (and yes, I'd also support the above that Paladin has such innate natural defenses that they dont need the Vit) but in terms of general content with trash like Expert Dungeons (which is where you actually SEE most of the Vit-loving paladins, as most of the raiders already understand the importance of strength) a Paladin is sort of okay with Vit for general performance, whereas STR on a DRK/WAR will have a much more marked effect on their self sustainability and group damage output.

Again, not arguing that paladins should go Vit, just stating that as the OP of this thread was mostly speaking from an Expert Dungeon / non-raiding perspective, that in those environments Paladin is the tank whose performance is least noticeably increased by being strength spec.

[Syzygian]

(and yes, I'd also support the above that Paladin has such innate natural defenses that they dont need the Vit)

Where do these arguments come from? What innate natural defenses do they have that make a marked difference in how they take damage to the extent that how much Vit they do or do not have makes a difference? I'll bet my next paycheck that the difference in "innate natural defenses" (passive mitigation, I'm assuming) between PLD and DRK/WAR doesn't even add up to the eHP of a single i180 fending accessory.

[SwordCoheir]

Where do these arguments come from? What innate natural defenses do they have that make a marked difference in how they take damage to the extent that how much Vit they do or do not have makes a difference? I'll bet my next paycheck that the difference in "innate natural defenses" (passive mitigation, I'm assuming) between PLD and DRK/WAR doesn't even add up to the eHP of a single i180 fending accessory.

I think people are still hung on the notion that Shields still offer extensive mitigation strength, but haven't come to realize how hard it got nerfed when 3.0 hit. But your right, PLD's mitigation doesn't hold weight since they revamped Shields and Parry.

[Callidus]

However - DRK and WAR both have a LOT more self healing that's tied to their damage output (inner beast, extended Bloodbath, Souleater, DA Abyssal), whereas paladins purely have a crossclassed Bloodbath. Thus they're losing less survivability from doing less damage. In addition, their AOE tanking relies much more heavily on Flash which does -zero- damage, so in an AOE situation you wont really notice much difference between a STR and a VIT PLD, but you'd notice HUGE difference between the output of the DRK/WAR.

Actually Clemency scales off of Attack and therefore STR as well; though in fairness to you it is not used much given its quirks. Flash does too and, while Flash itself doesn't do damage, more potent Flashes means fewer Flashes and more GCDs spent doing actual damage.

Even untraited, a FoF+Bloodbath is still pretty powerful. It isn't that hard for a well geared PLD (i200+) to sustain ~1k DPS (until you run out of TP...) while tanking in SwOath if mechanics aren't too disruptive. Considering you'll try to time as much damage into FoF as possible, burst during FoF around 1.4k is perfectly reasonable and even a bit conservative. Some quick math (.25 x 1400) makes that about 350HPS during bloodbath for a total of about 5250 total HP recovered. Even round that down to 4500 and it's still significant if not exactly epic heals.