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  1. #1
    Player
    xXRaineXx's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
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    うるうるだ
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    369
    Character
    Raine Serafine
    World
    Chocobo
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylve View Post

    And if your so called "clunkiness" is about Bloodletter, it triggers in 3 second intervals. Cast times are 1.5 seconds and recasts are 2.5. It is literally impossible to miss the Bloodletter procs if you're paying attention and your mythical double procs can...
    Actually double procs are still a thing... don't ask me why, but I have 800 crit on my BRD, procs roll in like moth to the flames... double procs during a single cast is more prominent now... for me at least.

    There is a slight oddity with WM and BRD with procs atm... while I think the OP should be deleted, there is in fact clunks in the rotation.

    For example, most able BRD's will wait till the very last second to refresh DoTs, which is about 2 seconds left on the timer for Iron Jaws to be able to refresh it without letting it drop.
    But for example, you went Heavy Shot -> Iron Jaws, you can refresh in time, but if a proc popped Heavy Shot -> Bloody Arrow -> Iron Jaws, most likely you will drop your DoTs as BA has around 0.5s delay. But if you get a proc but decide to pop IJ's instead and you get another proc, you lose DPS. You pop IJ at 5sec instead to allow some breathing room, you lose DPS again. BRD's leak DPS everywhere, that is a fact.

    While BRD is still a very capable DPS, it simply takes A LOT of effort to keep up with everything. It takes near perfection to dish out DPS of what other classes fumble on.
    (2)

  2. #2
    Player
    WinterLuna's Avatar
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    Dec 2013
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    Doma
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    1,377
    Character
    Indira Light
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 69
    Quote Originally Posted by xXRaineXx View Post
    While BRD is still a very capable DPS, it simply takes A LOT of effort to keep up with everything. It takes near perfection to dish out DPS of what other classes fumble on.
    Bard is a support class, that's the point. It would be slightly strange if we put out the same amount of DPS as a Dragoon. I think Bard is fine the way it is, in my opinion, and actually enjoy using WM. It's not exactly that hard to play compared to other classes.
    (2)

  3. #3
    Player
    xXRaineXx's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
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    Character
    Raine Serafine
    World
    Chocobo
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by WinterLuna View Post
    Bard is a support class, that's the point. It would be slightly strange if we put out the same amount of DPS as a Dragoon. I think Bard is fine the way it is, in my opinion, and actually enjoy using WM. It's not exactly that hard to play compared to other classes.
    Aye... you completely missed my point >> I'm just talking about BL having little sync with rotations. Which in turn has me button mashing more than when I play MNK... I meant effort as in physical effort to actually press buttons ;/
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player
    WinterLuna's Avatar
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    Character
    Indira Light
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 69
    Quote Originally Posted by xXRaineXx View Post
    Aye... you completely missed my point >> I'm just talking about BL having little sync with rotations. Which in turn has me button mashing more than when I play MNK... I meant effort as in physical effort to actually press buttons ;/
    Ahh, in that case fair enough, I just think Bard is fine. Much easier than playing Dragoon on a controller at least :P
    (0)

  5. #5
    Player
    Sylve's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    1,679
    Character
    Lyote Sharaia
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by xXRaineXx View Post
    -
    At that duration on the DoTs, its better to IJ instead of BL. Especially if you have buffs up (Your own or others), you lose more DPS for having to manual cast 2 DoTs than missing a potential BL reset.
    Ironically, the WM cast times have often let me correct the mistake of trying to squeeze in one last Heavy Shot :P

    That said, I do think Bloodletter needs to have "Charges" instead of a flat cooldown with the River of Blood proc adding a charge rather than replacing the cooldown. The charges would recover on their own at the same rate BL currently does, but it would essentially allow the River of Blood to give us 2 uses of Bloodletter (3 if it happens at the same moment Bloodletter naturally resets) if we get lucky enough that both DoTs crit AND trigger. Place a cap on the charges or a duration on them so you can't prestack or save up dozens of shots.

    I think that'd pretty much eliminate the one 'bugbear' Bard currently suffers.
    (0)

  6. #6
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Sep 2011
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    12,863
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylve View Post
    That said, I do think Bloodletter needs to have "Charges" instead of a flat cooldown with the River of Blood proc adding a charge rather than replacing the cooldown. The charges would recover on their own at the same rate BL currently does, but it would essentially allow the River of Blood to give us 2 uses of Bloodletter (3 if it happens at the same moment Bloodletter naturally resets) if we get lucky enough that both DoTs crit AND trigger. Place a cap on the charges or a duration on them so you can't prestack or save up dozens of shots.

    I think that'd pretty much eliminate the one 'bugbear' Bard currently suffers.
    Just a small note: DoT timers already occurred simultaneously prior to having IJ. IJ hasn't increased BL waste. Only using WM poorly (not keeping track of our the 3-second tick timer compared to offset + GCD + x oGCDs) has made any changes in regards to BL waste. The charge suggestion, if it were to take advantage of simultaneous procs, could easily increase our BL dps by an additional half our crit rate x # of double-dotted targets. If the same were applied to Rain of Death, it could well become an AoE king...

    Moreover, even if it didn't take advantage of simultaneous procs, instead simply allowing for a bit more leeway, is that really something we want? At worst it would take away from the constant decision checks of WM Bard, and at best it would simply delay them those decisions by a GCD + 1.5 oGCDs. (This would let you use CDs in a more prompt manner, but unless you proc a Straighter Shot that GCD, you're still going to lose a BL or have to clip GCD on the next.)

    Apart from making up for lost uptime on a melee (where rotations are finally not perfectly consistent), I typically find Bard the physical dps class of those I've leveled (all but MCH) that takes the most effort, or at least consciousness, to maximize the dps of, but I like it that way.
    (0)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 12-08-2015 at 11:14 AM.

  7. #7
    Player
    RiceisNice's Avatar
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    Jul 2014
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    3,514
    Character
    Flo Fyloord
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    Just a small note: DoT timers already occurred simultaneously prior to having IJ. IJ hasn't increased BL waste. Only using WM poorly (not keeping track of our the 3-second tick timer compared to offset + GCD + x oGCDs) has made any changes in regards to BL waste. The charge suggestion, if it were to take advantage of simultaneous procs, could easily increase our BL dps by an additional half our crit rate x # of double-dotted targets. If the same were applied to Rain of Death, it could well become an AoE king...
    It's only really applicable on single target mobs (and a good handful of fights allow you to multi-dot, and outside of raiding, I just don't have a fun time multidotting on my BRD), and even then it's still a pretty shoddy feeling to have your oGCDs reset mid-cast, let alone trying to make empyreal arrow make properly inbetween your GCDs.

    Having oGCD resets is fine and makes for a frantic, situational awareness gameplay (which I enjoyed in 2.0), it just doesn't work or flow very well for a job that uses cast times and really just feels like they didn't put any thought into it. I'm also against your idea of wild shots on BRD, if only on the basis that I don't want them to be even more homogenized with MCH gameplay by having procs for (stronger) instant shots. Numbers should really be the least of the concerns for making these sort of suggestions, since those factors are probably the easiest to change inbetween hotfixes; the changes should be more toward making the two different from each other (like...not giving bard WM when it's functionally the same as GB).
    (0)
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  8. #8
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Sep 2011
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    12,863
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by RiceisNice View Post
    It's only really applicable on single target mobs (and a good handful of fights allow you to multi-dot, and outside of raiding, I just don't have a fun time multidotting on my BRD), and even then it's still a pretty shoddy feeling to have your oGCDs reset mid-cast, let alone trying to make empyreal arrow make properly inbetween your GCDs.

    Having oGCD resets is fine and makes for a frantic, situational awareness gameplay (which I enjoyed in 2.0), it just doesn't work or flow very well for a job that uses cast times and really just feels like they didn't put any thought into it. I'm also against your idea of wild shots on BRD, if only on the basis that I don't want them to be even more homogenized with MCH gameplay by having procs for (stronger) instant shots. Numbers should really be the least of the concerns for making these sort of suggestions, since those factors are probably the easiest to change inbetween hotfixes; the changes should be more toward making the two different from each other (like...not giving bard WM when it's functionally the same as GB).
    What I was going for with Wild Shots was mostly just more double-weaves per EA/IJ/rotation and the ability to store at least one so that these opportunities can be more tactical in nature, rather than mostly just RNG (holding onto SS+ for no more than a single additional HS before EA or double-weave). I see how that could feel like Slug/Clean Shot procs though, and therefore without identity, even if Straighter Shot came first.

    Tbh, ideally I'd have liked WM to be a stance variance for Archer that is only situationally stronger (at certain points of the rotation) actually requires the Archer to weave in and out of the stance for max damage. The only major issue with that is that I find the current non-WM Bard gameplay a bit flat; it would have to be adjusted to a similar intensity in some way. Rather than getting WM or anything like it later on, I'd have preferred that each song interact in some way with our actual combat rotations, likely modifying Blood Letter and Rain of Death, and allowing us 'spot' adjustments, such as specifically helping out the mana of one healer over another, or secondary effects, Windsong, for instance, being a movement (Swiftsong) or Attack Speed/Cooldown-reducing buff, Paean being a TP regen and debuff/knockback/DoT-mitigating resistance buff, etc. Something that makes our combat itself potentially feel more supportive, and varied, with the addition of songs.
    (0)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 12-09-2015 at 09:37 AM.

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