AST's weakness in end game

[AzureFlare]

And what about WHM? Why can't they be in the offslot? Why shouldn't SCH be able to be in the mainslot? Let's at least make it fair to the point that all 3 jobs are both offslot/mainslot worthy without stupidly big differences. I was under the impression that Nocturnal exists as to fit the shields+regens combo, not to fit the bulk healer+hybrid DPS combo. Or do we really want to go back to the point where tons of people were complaining that 'AST gets to fulfill both gg y level SCH/WHM pfft'.
Right now, you could literally fit that same shoe on WHM: they only fit one slot. SCH's off the best being able to fit either but they are so good in the offslot you'd be branded for putting an AST/WHM on it instead, unless you go SCH+SCH. Honestly, calling nocturnal AST's lacking DPS capabilities compared to SCH is ignoring the elephant in the room when a single CD for MP being stronger than either of the two other healers' CDs combined is merely the tip of the iceberg.

[Vlady]

It is an issue. You play this game, not the game you wish it was. And in this game the off healer does far more dpsing than it does anything else, and often for extended durations as the main healer heals everything. If SE changes the meta, than perhaps it would be less important. But right now, it is. AST's mana issue while dpsing is a massive barrier to use it is anything other than the main healer.

Fail to mention the cards that buff dps of other jobs mana free did we?

[Sidra]

It's an Astrologian thread on a healer forum, I assume everyone here knows about the cards. Their existence and the benefit they provide does not make them superior to a SCH in the offhealer slot. Why would I have needed to mention them?

[Vlady]

It's an Astrologian thread on a healer forum, I assume everyone here knows about the cards. Their existence and the benefit they provide does not make them superior to a SCH in the offhealer slot. Why would I have needed to mention them?

Maybe we should let this thread die. Clearly I am wasting my 10 posts a day on incoherent posts from someone who ignores comments from people who gives him a scenario which he ignores when it goes against his arguement. Let alone how he manages to contradict himself. He is only going to talk about what is real right now and not what if scenarios then goes off and speaks that certain fights do not count because it does not fit his narrow definition where the astro fails. Thordan Extreme is a high end form of content right now as much as As3-As4.

[Ghishlain]

I did hours of tests worth and without buffs with my brother and get yelled down for supposedly coming up with magic numbers during the time astrologian were wanting buffs.

Vlady, I hate to beat a dead horse but maybe I can talk some sense now that the animosity has died down and it's easier to read one post then a million at once.

The reason why yourself and your brother was yelled down was because your numbers are magical. Let's take your example stating you increased a DRGs DPS by 800. An 800 DPS increase is rather absurd when you consider Balance adds 10% additional damage to a DPS and in order for a DPS to get this 800 DPS increase, they would need to be doing 8,000 DPS (10% of 8,000 DPS is 800 DPS).

Semantics is important when discussing math and theorycraft. If you told us the DRG in question had an increase of 800 damage (not DPS), it would be more believable. 800 additional damage divided by (pre-AST-buff duration of) 15s of Balance leads to a DPS increase of approximately 53.3. This value feels much more reasonable in a time period when players were still learning their rotations and gearing up for content at the beginning of HW.

Clarity is important when discussing these sort of variables in a theoretical environment. It's also why I take Tato's theorycraft earlier in the thread about increasing BLM GCDs via Arrow with a grain of salt because there's no way to quantify the amount of additional damage they're actually doing despite getting additional GCDs. BLMs are still mostly constrained to how quickly they can regenerate MP which is tied to Umbral Ice which is also tied to server ticks (similar to how DoTs are constrained to server ticks as well). They aren't as limited as SMNs but still have that small gap where they won't be able to make much use of Arrow. Also, Tato was comparing the GCD reduction on a single player versus a GCD reduction to the raid from Selene over the course of the same which again is another variable difficult to quantify because raid composition is different from group to group. It's just important to point out because that BLM w/ Arrow needs to contribute more DPS than the raid DPS added by having that many GCDs go off.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to point out and can see how it might avoid conflicts later down the line.

[Mimilu]

AST QoL Suggestions
- Make it so Shuffle doesn't draw the same card.
- Nocturnal Sect. It's not bad but there are a few QoL stuff that could be done. Shyluv's suggestion of having CO increase the amount on the shields is a good example, I might even suggest having TD do the same thing as well. Another suggestion maybe to compensate for the 5% attack speed lose by having it increase our damage by a certain amount.

[TatoRazzino]

Vlady, I hate to beat a dead horse but maybe I can talk some sense now that the animosity has died down and it's easier to read one post then a million at once.

The reason why yourself and your brother was yelled down was because your numbers are magical. Let's take your example stating you increased a DRGs DPS by 800. An 800 DPS increase is rather absurd when you consider Balance adds 10% additional damage to a DPS and in order for a DPS to get this 800 DPS increase, they would need to be doing 8,000 DPS (10% of 8,000 DPS is 800 DPS).

Semantics is important when discussing math and theorycraft. If you told us the DRG in question had an increase of 800 damage (not DPS), it would be more believable. 800 additional damage divided by (pre-AST-buff duration of) 15s of Balance leads to a DPS increase of approximately 53.3. This value feels much more reasonable in a time period when players were still learning their rotations and gearing up for content at the beginning of HW.

Clarity is important when discussing these sort of variables in a theoretical environment. It's also why I take Tato's theorycraft earlier in the thread about increasing BLM GCDs via Arrow with a grain of salt because there's no way to quantify the amount of additional damage they're actually doing despite getting additional GCDs. BLMs are still mostly constrained to how quickly they can regenerate MP which is tied to Umbral Ice which is also tied to server ticks (similar to how DoTs are constrained to server ticks as well). They aren't as limited as SMNs but still have that small gap where they won't be able to make much use of Arrow. Also, Tato was comparing the GCD reduction on a single player versus a GCD reduction to the raid from Selene over the course of the same which again is another variable difficult to quantify because raid composition is different from group to group. It's just important to point out because that BLM w/ Arrow needs to contribute more DPS than the raid DPS added by having that many GCDs go off.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to point out and can see how it might avoid conflicts later down the line.

I'll add to that the fact that having to dodge lowers how effective the Arrow card is. The results of comparing Arrow to Selene were not to be taken as a final argument. I honestly believe that a BLM can add more DPS in that many GCDs than the group wold simply because they're the job that benefits the most from attack speed due to resource refresh. My calculation could have been adjusted in several ways, and I could argue that I could throw those balances around the party and add those GCDs. Anyway, theorycraft is just theory and can only show ideal situations. Fights change that a lot.

[OpheliaHeartilly]

... only when variables are constantly consistent ...

[Yhisa]

This is the main weakness of ast !!!

Being compaired to whm or sch..... Every damn post i see on this damn forum is..

Ast X need to be like Y skill of whm
Or
Ast X need to be like Y skill of sch

THIS IS THE PROBLEM....

Wish players stop doing this and actually come up ideas to make as have its own identity , i mean did we all bitched about AST being like whm/sch just with added card mechanics? .... Yet when people come up with ideas.... They always make it similar to sch or whm

AND THATS THE PROBLEM

[Vlady]

Vlady, I hate to beat a dead horse but maybe I can talk some sense now that the animosity has died down and it's easier to read one post then a million at once.

The reason why yourself and your brother was yelled down was because your numbers are magical. Let's take your example stating you increased a DRGs DPS by 800. An 800 DPS increase is rather absurd when you consider Balance adds 10% additional damage to a DPS and in order for a DPS to get this 800 DPS increase, they would need to be doing 8,000 DPS (10% of 8,000 DPS is 800 DPS).

Semantics is important when discussing math and theorycraft. If you told us the DRG in question had an increase of 800 damage (not DPS), it would be more believable. 800 additional damage divided by (pre-AST-buff duration of) 15s of Balance leads to a DPS increase of approximately 53.3. This value feels much more reasonable in a time period when players were still learning their rotations and gearing up for content at the beginning of HW.

Clarity is important when discussing these sort of variables in a theoretical environment. It's also why I take Tato's theorycraft earlier in the thread about increasing BLM GCDs via Arrow with a grain of salt because there's no way to quantify the amount of additional damage they're actually doing despite getting additional GCDs. BLMs are still mostly constrained to how quickly they can regenerate MP which is tied to Umbral Ice which is also tied to server ticks (similar to how DoTs are constrained to server ticks as well). They aren't as limited as SMNs but still have that small gap where they won't be able to make much use of Arrow. Also, Tato was comparing the GCD reduction on a single player versus a GCD reduction to the raid from Selene over the course of the same which again is another variable difficult to quantify because raid composition is different from group to group. It's just important to point out because that BLM w/ Arrow needs to contribute more DPS than the raid DPS added by having that many GCDs go off.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to point out and can see how it might avoid conflicts later down the line.

I am not arguing the issue that a dragoon burst going from 1600 to near 2400 might not be taken seriously but the flames of hell falls down upon me by the entire forum for standing for the parses I made against the dummies using balance at the time he burned his cooldowns but yet you calculating 0% overheal is a oops that no one seemed to have mind in your statistics. It was quite fun having people whisper me nightly cussing me out when I have never met them before but I digress. The astrologian thread #30 per week is getting old. When the tip starts to go back from healthy debate to absurdity and silliness then yes I will come out to put things back into perspective.