AST's weakness in end game

[Yhisa]

Anyway im done talking to u because ur just dropping my iq level and u got no knowledge about ast at all, all ur doing is throwing stupid argument back as if u got like this 100% perfect luck with ur cards even when majority of the cards are situational and benefit certain jobs

If u give ninja/monk/drg. Arrow.. They will burn tp too fast
If u give ewer to blm they will be pissed off as u screw there rotation up
And so forth the cards require u to have a brain to begin with if ur just throwing them out at will.. Then ur playing ast wrong already, i seen ast use extend on spear... Which is pointless, and even use time dialation on ut like wtf stop it ur doing it wrong

But i know for a fact i know how to play ast and know how to use my cards correctly if RNG allows me to

[TatoRazzino]

Spear is too situational , jesus christ do u even savage as ast?? Or are u one of these forum pricks who want to be that special snow flake and argue it out because u want to be right and wont refuse solid facts??

"Solid facts"? Ok, game on! TL;DR: the Arrow is way more powerful than Selene.

EDIT: There was some miscalculations pointed out by Ghishlain in the original version, so I'm editing it now with his/her adjustments. The problems did not interfere too much with the overall comparison, since it lowered the benefit from both Selene and The Arrow in the same degree, but I don't like to see mistakes in things I write so I decided to redo the whole thing.

Selene, for instance, adds 3% AoE haste for 30s, but the skill has a 60s cooldown, which means that you can only keep it up for about half of the fight. Regular GCD time is 2.5, and even with a lot of skill/spell speed you can only reduce it to around 2.35; take 3% out of that and you have 2.28, which means that Selene reduces a regular GCD by 0.07s. Let's see how this goes for a 30s duration, shall we?

30/2.35 = 12.7 GCDs
30/2.28 = 13.15 GCDs

You basically added a 0.45 GCD total from your Selene buff, which allowed you to squeeze that extra GCD within the 30s treshhold; in the longrun, that’s not too important though, because the buff falls off right after it and by the end of the encounter any GCD delays will be nullified. The only thing that really matters is how many cooldowns the buff adds by the end of the fight. If you manage to use that 10 times in a fight (considering an average of 10 minutes per encounter), the reduction will end up adding 4.45, which is rounded to 4 since having 45% of a GCD to spare is not relevant. Also, this means that you need to use Selene’s buff three times in order to add a complete GCD to anyone’s rotation.

Now let's try it with 5% from an AST AoE Arrow, which reduces the 2.35 to 2.23:

30/2.35 = 12.7 GCDs
30/2.23 = 13.45

A 0.75 GCD difference. If you're lucky and manage to do that 6 times in a fight, you'll end up adding the same 4 complete GCDs Selene added. Also, you only need to do it twice to add a complete GCD, and doing it three times will add 2 complete GCDs.

However, let's not ignore the fact that Attack Speed doesn't work the same way for every job in the game. SMNs, for example, don't need that much attack speed since their burst damage comes from off-GCD skills and their base damage comes from DoTs, which are not affected by attack speed (they're affected by spell speed); adding attack speed to a SMN only makes them burst more Ruins, which is not a big DPS increase. Tanks, Melee DPS and Physical Ranged DPS may have TP problems if you keep haste on them for long, which means that you may get more value from attack speed by concentrating it on the job that benefits the most from it: BLM. Add a 10% Arrow to our calculation and we'll have

30/2.35 = 12.7 CGDs
30/2.11 = 14.22 GCDs

A 1.52 difference, which means that not only we squeezed that extra 13rd GCD in the 30s but we also managed to add a 14th move. Now let's try using Time Dilation and raising that to 45s:

45/2.35 = 19.15
45/2.11 = 21.33

A 2.18 difference. Let's enhance it for 5 more seconds by using Celestial Opposition combined with Time Dilation:

50/2.35 = 21.28
50/2.11 = 23.7

A 2.43 difference. One card with the two combined cooldowns did for a BLM what Selene would require 6 casts to do. And that's not even a card with Royal Road. Let's imagine we could set up an Enhanced Arrow (15%, which generates a 2s GCD) and extended it by 20s with Time Dilation + Celestial Opposition:
50/2.35 = 21.28
50/2 = 25

A 3.72 difference, which is almost the same as Selene can do for a BLM in an entire fight. Setting card openers before the pull is quite simple and if you can set up that combo for the BLM opener, with Ley Lines and all other cooldowns, your BLM’s DPS will be higher than it would be if you only had Selene; and that just with a single card.

If you Draw three regular Arrows in a 10 minute fight (you can Draw 18 cards if you're fast with them, so there’s a high chance you’ll see those three Arrows in a fight), you’ll add 4.56 GCDs to those 3.72 you previously added, result in in a 8.28 GCD increase; 8 more spells for a BLM, which means we could have some extra Fire IVs in the encounter. We've reached the same as what Selene can do for two party members.
If you manage to set up those Arrows we mentioned as Enhanced or Extended Arrows, or if you just use Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition, the benefit you'll get just from buffing your BLM can reach more overall DPS than Selene would while buffing the whole party, without any risk of messing up with TP management.

This is a solid fact that you can test at any time in an actual fight.

So my answer is: no, I'm not a forum prick who want to be that special snow flake and argue it out because I want to be right and refuse solid facts; I just know how to play my job right.

[TatoRazzino]

Anyway im done talking to u because ur just dropping my iq level and u got no knowledge about ast at all, all ur doing is throwing stupid argument back as if u got like this 100% perfect luck with ur cards even when majority of the cards are situational and benefit certain jobs

If u give ninja/monk/drg. Arrow.. They will burn tp too fast
If u give ewer to blm they will be pissed off as u screw there rotation up
And so forth the cards require u to have a brain to begin with if ur just throwing them out at will.. Then ur playing ast wrong already, i seen ast use extend on spear... Which is pointless, and even use time dialation on ut like wtf stop it ur doing it wrong

But i know for a fact i know how to play ast and know how to use my cards correctly if RNG allows me to

Oh, I'm dropping your IQ level. Have you checked your spelling and grammar lately?

[Mibgestalt]

To be honest, there are plenty of good players who think AST is still weak when it comes to end-game. And, there are plenty of good players who think AST is fine when it comes to end-game.

At this point it's very difficult to compare or debate, because AST was a bit of a "late bloomer" in terms of capability until they got the earlier buffs.

And now, with how over-geared even a casual player is relevant to the endgame content, chances are that if you're not clearing things, there's more improvement to be made within the ability/coordination/time dedicated of your group and individual players, and less in the job you are playing.

When 3.2 rolls around we'll get a better look at whether or not there's really a disparity.

[Shyluv]

The only thing that needs to be adjusted on AST is noct sect. Have CO add maybe 2% potency to already applied shields and cards. Or, something like extending dots by 5 seconds.

One other thing I'd like to see is Lightspeed's cooldown shortened, and the mana reduction adjusted as needed. Just so we could aoe burst heal a little more often.

That is it.

Cards are fine. You make the most of whatever you draw.

[TatoRazzino]

The only thing that needs to be adjusted on AST is noct sect. Have CO add maybe 2% potency to already applied shields and cards. Or, something like extending dots by 5 seconds.

One other thing I'd like to see is Lightspeed's cooldown shortened, and the mana reduction adjusted as needed. Just so we could aoe burst heal a little more often.

That is it.

Cards are fine. You make the most of whatever you draw.

That's a pretty good idea! I believe numbers could be a little higher for the shields, though. In Nocturnal, Celestial Opposition could add 15% more potency to shields while Time Dilation (the name would have to be changed for it to make any sense, maybe something like "Aetherial Dilation") could add 30-50%. In Diurnal the skill could remain the same.

[Warr_of_Lint]

That's a pretty good idea! I believe numbers could be a little higher for the shields, though. In Nocturnal, Celestial Opposition could add 15% more potency to shields while Time Dilation (the name would have to be changed for it to make any sense, maybe something like "Aetherial Dilation") could add 30-50%. In Diurnal the skill could remain the same.

They should save "Aetherial Dilation" in case they come up with a "Midwife" healing job. They could cast defensive spells like Lamaze, which reduces damage when the party member stands still (they practice the breathing technique to endure the pain).

Joking aside, I don't know if the name really matters. I have no idea what a "Cleric Stance" is or why it flips healing with damage, but there it is.

[Pomelo]

The only thing that needs to be adjusted on AST is noct sect. Have CO add maybe 2% potency to already applied shields and cards. Or, something like extending dots by 5 seconds.

One other thing I'd like to see is Lightspeed's cooldown shortened, and the mana reduction adjusted as needed. Just so we could aoe burst heal a little more often.

That is it.

Cards are fine. You make the most of whatever you draw.

I wrote a huge post in response to all the craziness going on in this and the other thread but than I thought...the stuff in bold sums it up.

[Nekotee]

Last i recall
If you compare AST and whm
They have the same single target potency and AST has a lower mana cost, is a lot faster thanks to diurnal, and have a double mana regen (LA and ewer) that can be both extended...

I'm sorry i fail to see how whm is better ?

Oh yeah cure III, assize and asylum in aoe healing...
Yup good... But lightspeed allow the same for more or less the same mana cost

The two best thing of the whm
""'Instant""" benediction that can save anyone and bypass CS (can you see the quote for the instant part... Friggin animation)
And the enmity reduction provider by the shroud...
Which made him the only healer able to remove his aggro (and this is huge !)
Ast can only nullify it and sch has nothing...
....

The SCH can be far more stronger than the AST with crit...
Basic AST shield are better, but SCH are double with crit

EoS allow the SCH to be stronger because of her bonus healing skills
Otherwise... What can beat the instant shield from AST ? Seriously?
(I stop counting how many lazy derp i saved with that, especially on Alex 4 NM)

[NamoNanamo]

Oh yeah cure III, assize and asylum in aoe healing...
Yup good... But lightspeed allow the same for more or less the same mana cost

nop. Whm still far better in aoe healing.

I got idea since all those claiming AST is fine go run double as in savage 1 in noct sect the other in diurnal sect ... Now since we are mimics of whm/ sch we should be able to do it no problem at all ... I want video prove of it linked on thos forum....until then ast needs a major rework with its identity and not shadow whm/sch and copy there regens/shield.. Or fairy/divine seal (cough synasty) .... Yes we can do content because we are being carried by the SCH or the WHM.... Ast on it self cannot do it.. Try it with double ast and u will see the problems we have ... So until then just suck it up at wait for changes towards ast

Are you ok ?