AST's weakness in end game

[Yhisa]

People always cry about DPS numbers and you think that TP/MP cards, which reduce the amount of time BRD/MCH needs to sing, are bad? The spells fit to the lore as it was presented in the quests: chanelling aether from the stars while manipulating time and fate. The job is themed in every single aspect.

Hmm not my fault that brd/ mech get penalty for using tp/mp regen ... Plus its a more reliable regen... By the time u pulled ewer or spire from ur ass the bard/mech would already solved the problem in less time meaning ur precious ewer/spire card is wasted .. In raid content if ur with a bard/mech... Or ninja. Ewer and spire is instantly useless because theres is stronger and is aoe xD

[TatoRazzino]

That's not true at all. In A2S no Spire or Ewer gets wasted. BRD/MCH only has to use their refresh skills around the second to last mob, which means that if you could get any Spires or Ewers you can prevent them from ever using their skills, or at least allow them to use them for less time, which will increase overall DPS. Those cards work just fine as means to prevent TP/MP shortage, you just have to know the fight to use them. In case they are not needed, they work just fine as Royal Road fodders for AoEing any of your other cards.

It's not your fault that they have to sacrifice DPS to support the party, but eliminating the need for this DPS loss is a value neither WHM nor SCH can add to the party. People wanted uniqueness, so embrace one of the unique aspects of the AST job

[Yhisa]

The cards and skills that need rework (focus card mechanic etc)

Draw - give us mp each time we draw!!

Spear - wasted A Lot unless u got godly prediction skills

Ewer - bard /mech does better job plus healers got shroud / aetherflow /energy drain/ tetragram

Arrow - Scholar selene is way better 3% near perminate buff for whole fight

Spire - bard /mech/ ninja does better job

Shuffle - remove cooldown all together allow me to battle it out with rng myself

[TatoRazzino]

The cards and skills that need rework (focus card mechanic etc)

Draw - give us mp each time we draw!!

Spear - wasted A Lot unless u got godly prediction skills

Ewer - bard /mech does better job plus healers got shroud / aetherflow /energy drain/ tetragram

Arrow - Scholar selene is way better 3% near perminate buff for whole fight

Spire - bard /mech/ ninja does better job

Shuffle - remove cooldown all together allow me to battle it out with rng myself

A single Arrow drawn is equivalent to 3 casts of Selene's buff. If you can use it with the Extended Royal Road buff, it's worth six times more. How is that worse than Selene's buff? The Fairy barely adds an extra GCD every 3 minutes, for crying out loud.
For the Spear: it's pretty easy to predict off-GCD skills. NIN, MCH and SMN are always using them; Tanks usually rotate cooldowns. If you don't feel like doing any of those, Royal Road it and double the duration of your next card.

The cards are not bad. You don't know how to use them, and that's clear from your replies. In fact, I doubt you even read what other people write since the "problems" you present have been dealt with over and over in several forums.

[Yhisa]

That\\'s not true at all. In A2S no Spire or Ewer gets wasted. BRD/MCH only has to use their refresh skills around the second to last mob, which means that if you could get any Spires or Ewers you can prevent them from ever using their skills, or at least allow them to use them for less time,

Lmfao u ignored the fact that u need to pull spire or ewer from ur ass to begin with to even help mech/bard out in the first place as an AST u need to play like u will not get good cards to begin with...also that ur trying to set up cards for a certain phase,

There are many other reasons why ewer and spire is wasted, all dps got invigorate , smn and sch both got aetherflow and energy drain, whm got shroud and ansize , blm got infinite mp, warrior got tp recover aswell in dps stance ... So yeah just mentioning these already make ewer and apire extreamly weak

[TatoRazzino]

Lmfao u ignored the fact that u need to pull spire or ewer from ur ass to begin with to even help mech/bard out in the first place as an AST u need to play like u will not get good cards to begin with...also that ur trying to set up cards for a certain phase,

There are many other reasons why ewer and spire is wasted, all dps got invigorate , smn and sch both got aetherflow and energy drain, whm got shroud and ansize , blm got infinite mp, warrior got tp recover aswell in dps stance ... So yeah just mentioning these already make ewer and apire extreamly weak

Do you even do Savage? Invigorate doesn't prevent PLD (who doesn't have invigorate in the first place), BRD, MCH, DRG and MNK from running out of TP in A2S; the same is true for MP management for WHM and AST. If you're not pulling either one of those, it means you're pulling Boles, Balances, Arrows and Spears, which are all useful cards for that fight. However, all cards are wasted if you don't know how to use them.

[Yhisa]

A single Arrow drawn is equivalent to 3 casts of Selene\\'s buff. If you can use it with the Extended Royal Road buff, it\\'s worth six times more. How is that worse than Selene\\'s buff? The Fairy barely adds an extra GCD every 3 minutes, for crying out loud

Sigh u just shown how clueless u are

Arrow is 10% on 1 player 5% if aoe and require luck to even get arrow in the first place

Seleene is 3% for majority of the fight, require not rng and lasts 30secs and is aoe

And i do know how to use my cards thank u, but u know RNG is a pain in the ass

U cannot garentee u will pull spear before a tank get hit by tank buster, u cannot garentee u will pulll ewer or spire to get mp/tp back

Arrow is only good for blm using laylines , spear is beat for jobs with off cds like ninja with mug, jugulate,ninjustsu , goad, smoke screen, mutilate,

But sure apparently i dont know how to use my cards lol

[Yhisa]

Do you even do Savage? Invigorate doesn't prevent PLD (who doesn't have invigorate in the first place), BRD, MCH, DRG and MNK from running out of TP in A2S; the same is true for MP management for WHM and AST. If you're not pulling either one of those, it means you're pulling Boles, Balances, Arrows and Spears, which are all useful cards for that fight. However, all cards are wasted if you don't know how to use them.

Spear is too situational , jesus christ do u even savage as ast?? Or are u one of these forum pricks who want to be that special snow flake and argue it out because u want to be right and wont refuse solid facts??

[TatoRazzino]

Spear is too situational , jesus christ do u even savage as ast?? Or are u one of these forum pricks who want to be that special snow flake and argue it out because u want to be right and wont refuse solid facts??

"Solid facts"? Ok, game on! TL;DR: the Arrow is way more powerful than Selene.

EDIT: There was some miscalculations pointed out by Ghishlain in the original version, so I'm editing it now with his/her adjustments. The problems did not interfere too much with the overall comparison, since it lowered the benefit from both Selene and The Arrow in the same degree, but I don't like to see mistakes in things I write so I decided to redo the whole thing.

Selene, for instance, adds 3% AoE haste for 30s, but the skill has a 60s cooldown, which means that you can only keep it up for about half of the fight. Regular GCD time is 2.5, and even with a lot of skill/spell speed you can only reduce it to around 2.35; take 3% out of that and you have 2.28, which means that Selene reduces a regular GCD by 0.07s. Let's see how this goes for a 30s duration, shall we?

30/2.35 = 12.7 GCDs
30/2.28 = 13.15 GCDs

You basically added a 0.45 GCD total from your Selene buff, which allowed you to squeeze that extra GCD within the 30s treshhold; in the longrun, that’s not too important though, because the buff falls off right after it and by the end of the encounter any GCD delays will be nullified. The only thing that really matters is how many cooldowns the buff adds by the end of the fight. If you manage to use that 10 times in a fight (considering an average of 10 minutes per encounter), the reduction will end up adding 4.45, which is rounded to 4 since having 45% of a GCD to spare is not relevant. Also, this means that you need to use Selene’s buff three times in order to add a complete GCD to anyone’s rotation.

Now let's try it with 5% from an AST AoE Arrow, which reduces the 2.35 to 2.23:

30/2.35 = 12.7 GCDs
30/2.23 = 13.45

A 0.75 GCD difference. If you're lucky and manage to do that 6 times in a fight, you'll end up adding the same 4 complete GCDs Selene added. Also, you only need to do it twice to add a complete GCD, and doing it three times will add 2 complete GCDs.

However, let's not ignore the fact that Attack Speed doesn't work the same way for every job in the game. SMNs, for example, don't need that much attack speed since their burst damage comes from off-GCD skills and their base damage comes from DoTs, which are not affected by attack speed (they're affected by spell speed); adding attack speed to a SMN only makes them burst more Ruins, which is not a big DPS increase. Tanks, Melee DPS and Physical Ranged DPS may have TP problems if you keep haste on them for long, which means that you may get more value from attack speed by concentrating it on the job that benefits the most from it: BLM. Add a 10% Arrow to our calculation and we'll have

30/2.35 = 12.7 CGDs
30/2.11 = 14.22 GCDs

A 1.52 difference, which means that not only we squeezed that extra 13rd GCD in the 30s but we also managed to add a 14th move. Now let's try using Time Dilation and raising that to 45s:

45/2.35 = 19.15
45/2.11 = 21.33

A 2.18 difference. Let's enhance it for 5 more seconds by using Celestial Opposition combined with Time Dilation:

50/2.35 = 21.28
50/2.11 = 23.7

A 2.43 difference. One card with the two combined cooldowns did for a BLM what Selene would require 6 casts to do. And that's not even a card with Royal Road. Let's imagine we could set up an Enhanced Arrow (15%, which generates a 2s GCD) and extended it by 20s with Time Dilation + Celestial Opposition:
50/2.35 = 21.28
50/2 = 25

A 3.72 difference, which is almost the same as Selene can do for a BLM in an entire fight. Setting card openers before the pull is quite simple and if you can set up that combo for the BLM opener, with Ley Lines and all other cooldowns, your BLM’s DPS will be higher than it would be if you only had Selene; and that just with a single card.

If you Draw three regular Arrows in a 10 minute fight (you can Draw 18 cards if you're fast with them, so there’s a high chance you’ll see those three Arrows in a fight), you’ll add 4.56 GCDs to those 3.72 you previously added, result in in a 8.28 GCD increase; 8 more spells for a BLM, which means we could have some extra Fire IVs in the encounter. We've reached the same as what Selene can do for two party members.
If you manage to set up those Arrows we mentioned as Enhanced or Extended Arrows, or if you just use Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition, the benefit you'll get just from buffing your BLM can reach more overall DPS than Selene would while buffing the whole party, without any risk of messing up with TP management.

This is a solid fact that you can test at any time in an actual fight.

So my answer is: no, I'm not a forum prick who want to be that special snow flake and argue it out because I want to be right and refuse solid facts; I just know how to play my job right.

[Ghishlain]

"Solid facts"? Ok, game on!

-Snip-

There are two thoughts you should consider in your theorycraft:

1. In a ten minute fight, you can use Selene ten times as there is no RNG component to it. With your math that means it'd be a total of 4.5s reduced to the group (I haven't fact checked this, but it looks right at a glance) [EDIT] Actually, you should probably consider normalizing the units from GCD to S or S to GCD and be consistent between it all because 0.45 GCD reduction =/= 0.45s reduction - its not important in the way you've done your math but it will be important once you start adding in things like Greased Lightning, Huton, and Ley Lines, as an FYI
2. While the BLM may arguable get the best increase in Arrow (with resource management in mind), Selene is still providing a boost to the entire raid. It's difficult to quantify your actual damage increase is dependent on the skill of your players, the party composition, and other factors such as spell/skill speed as that reduces the effectiveness of Haste. Your BLM has to be doing more damage with their Arrow buff versus the entire party getting 4.5s reduced (based on point #1). Take into account that if the BLM is 18% of your raid damage, that reduction in time is only 18% of the total raid reduction so its effectively 0.67s reduction for the entire raid GCD (probably worth more considering how BLM works in this scenario).

Last i recall
If you compare AST and whm
They have the same single target potency and AST has a lower mana cost, is a lot faster thanks to diurnal, and have a double mana regen (LA and ewer) that can be both extended...

I'm sorry i fail to see how whm is better ?

WHM has the following that is better:

1. AoE Healing (Divine Seal affects all cures, only the healing potency boost of Synastry affects AST AoE heals)
2. MP Management (Free Medica from Assize + Freecure say hi)
3. Enmity Management

AST has the following that is better:

1. Burst Single Target Heals
2. Party Support Buffs

Both have similar kits when comparing WHM vs Diurnal AST, just a matter of which kit may be more suitable for the fight / playstyle of the player.

@Topic
AST doesn't have any glaringly terrible weaknesses. Noct can use some polish to be more suitable and unique, but otherwise AST is in a good spot. It's what I feel a more technical job versus WHM and SCH as you need to not only be aware of your own toolkit but the nuances of everyone else's kit to maximize the potential of your card usage.