AST's weakness in end game

[Fevelle]

I don't feel like AST lacks anything right now... Maybe identity, but that's just a personal opinion.

[Ghishlain]

Updated my theorycraft post.

To put it bluntly, something feels "off" (it felt off to begin with, more so now than before, lol).

TLDR:

• On Living Liquid, AST use 17,692 MP when factoring in MP recovery tools
• On Living Liquid, WHM use 24,395 MP when factoring in MP recovery tools.
• Therefore AST MP efficiency > WHM MP efficiency.
• Please check my math / theorycraft, as it's a lot to write at once and I probably missed something on the way to my end result.
• Updated December 5th @ 5:30PM EST

My own thoughts:
I feel I need to revisit this. Even with AST had better MP efficiency, the divide shouldn't be that grand (WHM consumes approximately 40% more MP) so I probably fudged the math somewhere. What's also a red flag is how low the MP consumption is now considering the intensity of the fight as well. (thought that might be my own thoughts at work).

As usual, any fact checking is appreciated. I'm outta mental capacity to revist this at this time so I'll probably look again later. lol.

Changes made:

• Adjusted order of operations to go from Damage Reduction > Ability Healing > Magic Healing (to compensate for cooldowns not affecting ability heals)
• Asylum and Collective Unconciousness added
• Tetragrammaton and Essential Dignitiy added
• Bole added
• LA adjusted to be 7 ticks regardless
• No Time Dilation used as Time Dilation should be consumed for DPS buffs
• Pushed Lightspeed to five GCDs due to Haste + SpS
• Added Virus and E4E mitigation on WHM math
• Added mitigation for Disable and CU on AST math

As been asked, Synastry and Divine Seal has been "normalized" over the course of the fight and that value has been reduced from the overall healing required.

[Mibgestalt]

Updated my theorycraft post.

To put it bluntly, something feels "off" (it felt off to begin with, more so now than before, lol).

Probably that, and I mean this with all due respect, your spell choices don't correlate to how fights are healed in practice.

Astrologians cast a ton of Helios on that fight specifically. Like... when are you realistically able to just let CU and Medica II and Aspected Helios slowly heal everyone up in actual practice, with no overhealing whatsoever? It doesn't happen.

You have a mana-free heal, Collective Unconsciousness, account for like 280,000 raidhealing in that fight for Astrologian. The most I have seen it account for on ANY log is like 90k, and that is RARE. Assize almost always beats it, because HoTs overheal way more by design. Hell, Asylum almost always beats it by a sizeable margin in terms of effective healing, because it's so much easier to use effectively. And because when CU is used to mitigate, you rarely have the luxury of waiting for it to tick everyone up, regardless of how powerful it is. Then, there's things like how Cure III comes through in spades MP-wise when it's being compared to Helios, and it's often a WHMs second most effective heal on that fight (behind Medica II HoT).

Seriously, look at a log, and look how far off the spell choice division is in reality to how you've chosen it. There are a lot of other factors that make it highly inaccurate, but this is the biggest one.

TLDR; your model ignores time. It's an MP efficiency test, that ignores constraints of time and burst. In any situation where you get to sit and wait for Aspected Helios or Medica II to heal all raid damage, are you really going to have MP problems?

[Ghishlain]

Probably that, and I mean this with all due respect, your spell choices don't correlate to how fights are healed in practice.


Astrologians cast a ton of Helios on that fight specifically. Like... when are you realistically able to just let CU and Medica II and Aspected Helios slowly heal everyone up in actual practice, with no overhealing whatsoever? It doesn't happen.

You have a mana-free heal, Collective Unconsciousness, account for like 280,000 raidhealing in that fight for Astrologian. The most I have seen it account for on ANY log is like 90k, and that is RARE. Assize almost always beats it, because HoTs overheal way more by design. Hell, Asylum almost always beats it by a sizeable margin in terms of effective healing, because it's so much easier to use effectively. And because when CU is used to mitigate, you rarely have the luxury of waiting for it to tick everyone up, regardless of how powerful it is. Then, there's things like how Cure III comes through in spades MP-wise when it's being compared to Helios, and it's often a WHMs second most effective heal on that fight (behind Medica II HoT).

Seriously, look at a log, and look how far off the spell choice division is in reality to how you've chosen it. There are a lot of other factors that make it highly inaccurate, but this is the biggest one.

TLDR; your model ignores time. It's an MP efficiency test, that ignores constraints of time and burst. In any situation where you get to sit and wait for Aspected Helios or Medica II to heal all raid damage, are you really going to have MP problems?

No offense taken and that's a very real possibility and most likely possibly. Sometimes in one's focus we forgot the one fundamental of it all.

I guess I'll have to go back to the drawing board. /think

[Sidra]

I think some people are missing the boat, or maybe making it too complicated. The problem is that a Diurnal AST is a reasonable substitute for a main healing WHM, but is nowhere near as good as a Scholar for the off heal/dps/shield slot. So it's 2 healers vying for 1 spot much like PLD and DRK. So first, let's take a look at what makes SCH ideal for that role in the current meta:

1.) Fairy makes life easier on the main healer resulting in extra safety and usually allows the main healer to also add dps while the SCH barely leaves Cleric Stance
2.) Strong Single Target mitigation with Adlo/Virus (if used on single target)
3.) Strong AOE mitigation with Spread Adlo/Soil/Fey Covenant
4.) Very strong single target and AOE DPS while having unlimited mana to do so.

Now, when you put a Noct Astro in that slot - number 2 is the only area where they hang. Aspected Benefic and Disable perform similarly enough to Adlo and Virus to be equal in terms of clearing content for single target mitigation. But in all 3 other areas they are considerably worse. No fairy literally takes some dps away from the WHM/AST main healer. AOE shielding is considerably worse. It's impossible to AOE without running out of mana fast, and even on single targets, extended DPSing like in the first phase of A1 or Thordan leaves you in a pretty bad place MP wise. It ends up being a really bad substitute for a Scholar for the things we usually use a Scholar for. Even with the cards, it's an overall weaker party DPS than X/SCH while having weaker AOE shielding without bringing something additional to the group to compensate. A lot of people attribute it to cards versus Fey Wind, but I actually think the cards in their current form are better. It's the SCH doing more than the AST, and the main healer doing more with the SCH because of the fairy that the Noct AST in the offslot can't make up the difference for.

And with current gear the AOE shielding doesn't matter too much. But in early progression those A1 landings and Cascades it really hard in relation to HP creates a massive disparity between the two jobs.

My Suggestions which are simple but should fix the problem.

1.) 5% Bonus in Noct stance also to effect damage
2.) 20% MP reduction on Malefic II
3.) Aspected Helios in Noct changed to full Shield (300 potency, no hp healed)

[TatoRazzino]

Y

I think some people are missing the boat, or maybe making it too complicated. The problem is that a Diurnal AST is a reasonable substitute for a main healing WHM, but is nowhere near as good as a Scholar for the off heal/dps/shield slot. So it's 2 healers vying for 1 spot much like PLD and DRK. So first, let's take a look at what makes SCH ideal for that role in the current meta:

1.) Fairy makes life easier on the main healer resulting in extra safety and usually allows the main healer to also add dps while the SCH barely leaves Cleric Stance
2.) Strong Single Target mitigation with Adlo/Virus (if used on single target)
3.) Strong AOE mitigation with Spread Adlo/Soil/Fey Covenant
4.) Very strong single target and AOE DPS while having unlimited mana to do so.

Now, when you put a Noct Astro in that slot - number 2 is the only area where they hang. Aspected Benefic and Disable perform similarly enough to Adlo and Virus to be equal in terms of clearing content for single target mitigation. But in all 3 other areas they are considerably worse. No fairy literally takes some dps away from the WHM/AST main healer. AOE shielding is considerably worse. It's impossible to AOE without running out of mana fast, and even on single targets, extended DPSing like in the first phase of A1 or Thordan leaves you in a pretty bad place MP wise. It ends up being a really bad substitute for a Scholar for the things we usually use a Scholar for. Even with the cards, it's an overall weaker party DPS than X/SCH while having weaker AOE shielding without bringing something additional to the group to compensate. A lot of people attribute it to cards versus Fey Wind, but I actually think the cards in their current form are better. It's the SCH doing more than the AST, and the main healer doing more with the SCH because of the fairy that the Noct AST in the offslot can't make up the difference for.

And with current gear the AOE shielding doesn't matter too much. But in early progression those A1 landings and Cascades it really hard in relation to HP creates a massive disparity between the two jobs.

My Suggestions which are simple but should fix the problem.

1.) 5% Bonus in Noct stance also to effect damage
2.) 20% MP reduction on Malefic II
3.) Aspected Helios in Noct changed to full Shield (300 potency, no hp healed)

I'll have to disagree with you in one point. Not your commentaries on how AST is not as strong as a SCH as a healer/DPS hybrid, but I'll disagree with you when you propose any changes to AST. We have to face the fact that SCH is a job that branches out of a DPS class and their healing tools only come after getting to level 30; you can heal as a CNJ, but ACN makes a poor substitue of a healer. Those characteristics are core to understanding the SCH as much as they are when we analyze the transformation of MRD into WAR and the transformation of a GLA into a PLD. DRK/AST came out with toolkits that focused on damage mitigation/healing, and you can see that easily by looking at how their toolkit evolves level after level. You can also see that WAR/SCH can't replace PLD/WHM as well as DRK/AST, simply because the last two were designed as main-tanks/healers. If you ignore their DPS toolkit and just focus on their healing spells/skills, you can see that WAR/SCH doesn't have a complete toolkit to main heal. They can, but it takes considerable effort to do it. In my opinion, that's not a problem, and I bet our next tank/healing job will compete for the off-spot of the meta. We just have to give it time. Until then, we can use PLD-WAR/WHM-AST for heavy damage fights where no DPS check is tight, since they offer the safest mitigation/HP restoration combo.

EDIT: another thing that I just remembered: in SCoB, the meta for lots of the fights excluded an off-tank, as lots of groups (even in the beginning) took only one tank to T8-T9. The chosen tank was PLD.

[AzureFlare]

You can also see that WAR/SCH can't replace PLD/WHM as well as DRK/AST, simply because the last two were designed as main-tanks/healers. If you ignore their DPS toolkit and just focus on their healing spells/skills, you can see that WAR/SCH doesn't have a complete toolkit to main heal. They can, but it takes considerable effort to do it. In my opinion, that's not a problem, and I bet our next tank/healing job will compete for the off-spot of the meta. We just have to give it time. Until then, we can use PLD-WAR/WHM-AST for heavy damage fights where no DPS check is tight, since they offer the safest mitigation/HP restoration combo.

EDIT: another thing that I just remembered: in SCoB, the meta for lots of the fights excluded an off-tank, as lots of groups (even in the beginning) took only one tank to T8-T9. The chosen tank was PLD.

My problem is that from a "bare bones" point of view, SCH and Nocturnal AST are both made to at least fulfill their basic requirements, being able to contribute enough healing (with a partner in 8man/alliance setup) and that SE largely ignored the extras both of them bring, nocturnal AST being the one to have the short end of the stick and having a completely different design mentality than SCH for some unknown reason ('Arcanist iz hard to balance guise, SCH fairy fundamental 'cuz no regen'). Just talking about healers, it feels like SCH was allowed to keep the 2.0 flaws because 'it's strengths don't matter for the barebones design' (high near-mana neutral DPS), or in the fairy's case it is 'too fundamental' to the job, with 3.0 fixes to make it fit more with the barebones design (apparently it was lacking AoE healing). Meanwhile, WHM never had those design flaws coming from a pure healer class and only lacked healing flaws (quick direct heals) while AST also wasn't designed with those inherit flaws. And because nocturnal AST was meant to replicate most of the healing part of SCH, without breaking too much into its flavor (strong mitigation and pet), it doesn't have anywhere near the 'non-healer' strengths of SCH.

And for the same reason I don't see WHM-N.AST becoming a really favorable match-up at all. At most WHM/N.AST will become on par with D.AST/SCH-WHM/SCH if the SCH has to focus on doing a lot of healing and spending waaaaay less globals on DPS than it does now (which honestly is good enough). Unless they make a complete oversight (wouldn't surprise me) where stacking regens becomes obscenely powerful, in which case WHM-D.AST would be the king comp.

[TatoRazzino]

@AzureFlare
Notice that I didn't say nocturnal Astro. I don't see N. AST as an off-healer version of D. AST because your toolkit is still there and you can still main heal some fights in Nocturnal, even with a SCH in the group (A2S, for example). In my opinion, it's more a matter of play style than a matter of duty requirements.
Also, WHM/N. AST is a good combo for Thordan. The constant moving around the arena, repositioning the boss and constant AoE damage allow for N. AST to shine a bit in areas a SCH can't. Also, a lot of the SCH's DPS is lost when Shadow Flare becomes hard to use efficiently; if we're just throwing some DoTs and adding some burst spells when we see the boss doing his basic Dragon Eye + Knights of the Round rotation in the beginning of each fight, AST's combined potency can be higher than SCH's. When I cleared Thordan for the first time, I was playing D. AST with a SCH; I solo healed the first phase while adding some DoTs here and there and he DPSed the whole time, he also DPSed a little bit during the two knights part while I solo healed, and on the phases after Ultimate End, we DPSed the same amount of time by adding our full DoT rotation and some burst spells at the star of each phase. At the end of the fight, he parsed something around 360 and I parsed 280. Only 80 more, and he DPSed way more than I did. The second time I cleared it, I beat the SCH in DPS, and I had to solo heal the first phase with almost no DPS at all, only adding DoTs at the start of each phase. We're not as far behind as some people want us to be.

[AzureFlare]

Stuff

I did notice Thordan as a pretty fierce exception as well. Haven't cleared the fight yet (please don't ask why), but I can generally keep up 300+ DPS regardless if the other healer is a SCH or WHM unless chainraising is needed. Given from your example it does sound like there are a lot of differences since I got plenty of time to toss Malefic 2 in nearly every phase and you claim to only have been able to DoT at the start of phases (and I assume meteor/Sacred Cross being exceptions) and get near-similar results. Thordan is also nice enough that the you get a ridiculous amount of time to refresh your mana though.
My fear is also that Thordan-esque fights are a dime in a dozen. Wouldn't mind if all fights were of that structure really, all healers and their.. I guess playstyles? Shine in that fight pretty nicely.

[Katlyna]

Astro's are fine for endgame content. But Diurnal still is subpar all around. And Scholars are still more powerful than either of the other two healing classes when it comes to the healing + DPS game. In my eyes those are the two problems and they are big problems.