So...about that white magitek mount

[Fevelle]

Pay to win is something like Ragnarok Online where you had acess to best slotted equips and hats, cards and other and could be BiS +10 in every slot if you had enough money. A mount is NOT pay to win.

[Brannigan]

Cosmetic items are what you are rewarded with for clearing (winning at) content in the game.

You are buying cosmetic items.

You are paying to win.

[Lorielle]

Cosmetic items are what you are rewarded with for clearing (winning at) content in the game.
You are buying cosmetic items.
You are paying to win.

Were these mounts available in game? Are they enhancing my abilities? No. Here's a definition for you about Pay To Win since you're a little confused:

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

[Lorielle]

Because I don't want to support this future that SE is heading towards. SE has already fallen down the slippery slope once with paid content, with All the Bravest. Remember that? That game was received abysmally worldwide and was "pay to do anything at all" while also being pay to play - seeing the results of that game, your whole "club" argument falls extremely flat, because they can be also be used for that game as well.

I can't argue you with All the Bravest since I didn't play it. The difference between that and this though are night and day. One enhances the game play. The other does not. I still remember Final Fantasy Record Keeper doing quite well. It still has its own pay to win features, but that's completely optional(though it's more akin to pay for extra chances like Fate Grand Order).

Cash shop debates are nothing more than beating a dead horse and I won't bother, but the fact is, prices in this particular cash shop have gotten progressively more expensive over time because SE knows people are willing to buy them - that doesn't mean they should be becoming more expensive. There's no effort being put into this; these mounts are not content that takes much time to make - look at any game that supports modding and you'll see things that take far more time and effort than a recolor. In fact, the mods, free content that do recolor often retexture entirely, making them look cleaner overall.

Even I'm aware that some of the stuff is expensive, but it's only a one time thing unless you're a frequent race changer or must have a numerous set of dyes. That's all on you. There's always people going to be willing to buy because it is stuff they want and that they have no qualms with spending money on. I'm not arguing that the mounts took much effort or anything at all.

Also, I don't mind spending $12 on a game, but if I'm going to spend $12, it's going to be on something I can actually play, not something that makes me look pretty for a week before I get bored with it and start using other mounts.

See, this line of reasoning, I have no problem with. Because you are choosing what to do with your money. That's fine and dandy. But the issue I am seeing is people are annoyed that these mounts(as little effort as it may be) are not available to them. Instead they are cash shop only. So a vocal set are sharing their disappointment because one's value of 12 dollars(or 24) is not the same as someone else's.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

Cosmetic items are what you are rewarded with for clearing (winning at) content in the game.

You are buying cosmetic items.

You are paying to win.

So you mean pay to look more fabulous?

[Voltyblast]

Snip

First of all, I appreciate your leniency: quite a big shocker to be honest, for someone like me who had to name change and race change to avoid haters. I had people hating on me for far less!

But to be honest the main issue here isn't about these 2 mounts: they are optional, yes, we know that. I don't care either and I'm sure that if someone wants it they'll buy it.

The problem begins when they'll start putting EVERYTHING on the cash shop: we have mounts and costumes already, which could be easily implemented in-game via events or whatnot. These costumes are nothing major, you're right, but then what happens when they'll start adding things that could potentially make the game pay to win? It will soon become mandatory and not just optional, making this game on par with SWTOR in terms of cash shop exclusive items and I'm sure as "eff" that nobody wants to copy that (even though I do like that game, just not as a f2p)

We have mounts and costumes for now...but then when they'll add exp boosts, special buffs or even a "possible" house on the cash shop, you have nobody to blame but the community: they were fine buying and buying the cash shop items so much, that SE realized this and might make everything be a paywall. It will be a pay-to-win game at this rate: maybe not tomorrow or next year, but at this rate of things and content delivered in the shop they might evemtiaòòu put more vital items such as weapons, armors and even additional customization options.

I mean, here's what they could think at one point:
"Hey, people are buying the mount because it's of a different color and has a barely noticeable music in it? Let's put more of that stuff!!" - "Wait, we could try putting this tiny little armor in the game and see if it sells!" - "WOW IT'S SELLING LIKE HOTCAKES, let's put weapons in it too!" - "Screw it, let's put entire armor sets: people buy anything we throw at them!"

And that's why we are complaining: it's not about the current mounts and items into the cash shop, it's what they could lead in the long run.

[Brannigan]

Here's a definition for you about Pay To Win since you're a little confused:

Here's the definition of winning in FFXIV:

Getting items, titles, and mounts that make your character look different than other characters.


This is demonstrated in:

raids
minigames
dungeons
achievements
and by PAYING FOR IT.

[Lorielle]

Made up stuffs

Disregarding the universal definition of Pay to Win to stick in your own definition of it for a particular game. Well done. Surprise! My definition of winning isn't the same in XIV.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

Well if that's what he thinks, then there's no point in continuing the debate anymore, is there?

[Teryaani]

First of all, I appreciate your leniency: quite a big shocker to be honest, for someone like me who had to name change and race change to avoid haters. I had people hating on me for far less!

I'm sorry you've dealt with that. Was this on Balmung? I'm looking to server transfer from Siren to either Balmung or Famfrit and if it's going to be Moon Guard-esque jerkery on Balmung, I'll head to Famfrit instead.

The problem begins when they'll start putting EVERYTHING on the cash shop: we have mounts and costumes already, which could be easily implemented in-game via events or whatnot. These costumes are nothing major, you're right, but then what happens when they'll start adding things that could potentially make the game pay to win? It will soon become mandatory and not just optional, making this game on par with SWTOR in terms of cash shop exclusive items and I'm sure as "eff" that nobody wants to copy that (even though I do like that game, just not as a f2p)

We have mounts and costumes for now...but then when they'll add exp boosts, special buffs or even a "possible" house on the cash shop, you have nobody to blame but the community: they were fine buying and buying the cash shop items so much, that SE realized this and might make everything be a paywall. It will be a pay-to-win game at this rate: maybe not tomorrow or next year, but at this rate of things and content delivered in the shop they might evemtiaòòu put more vital items such as weapons, armors and even additional customization options.

I mean, here's what they could think at one point:
"Hey, people are buying the mount because it's of a different color and has a barely noticeable music in it? Let's put more of that stuff!!" - "Wait, we could try putting this tiny little armor in the game and see if it sells!" - "WOW IT'S SELLING LIKE HOTCAKES, let's put weapons in it too!" - "Screw it, let's put entire armor sets: people buy anything we throw at them!"

And that's why we are complaining: it's not about the current mounts and items into the cash shop, it's what they could lead in the long run.

Completely valid concern. Right now all we have to go on is Yoshi's own stance on this and that is that anything that impacts stats or gives you a leg up in any way in content is a no-go. He said no pay to win and until SE does something that violates that I'm going to trust that they'll stick with it. I know the house isn't pay to win either, but that would be a line crossed for most of us I think and I like to believe that SE knows that as well.

Has SE been fibby (looking at you personal housing statement from Yoshi) in the past? YUP! And I completely understand the suspicion. Me personally, I'm trusting them on this until they overstep the line in my head.