Stop telling Tanks not to use provoke there is a place to use it when pulling mobs.

[karateorangutang]

snip

Nobody was saying pull a boss or single mobs with provoke, that would be pretty silly lol. Using it as a tool to position mobs during a large pull, is another use for the ability that normally goes vastly unused in a 4 man scenario. Enmity isnt that hard to hold down at this point in the game and saying that it's only purpose is to take hate back seems a little unimaginative.

This is the point that the OP was trying to get across. Not that it should be used as a pulling device, but that it shouldn't be ignored as a tool to use in mass pulling.

[Fersaken]

This has been discussed before. You should not use provoke has your only pulling skill, you should not use it when regeneration skills active or you have an inexperienced group. But it has nice range costs no tp and can be useful for speed runs and grouping mobs together from a distance.


This reminds me of when the game was launched and people where telling WHMS not to use medica 2, regen, or cure 3 because of emnity and now we have a bunch of healers that don't explore all of WHM abilities. Divine seal swift cast medica 2, regen, presence of mind cleric stance, holy holy holy..... click off cleric stance pop shroud of saints= GOD MODE HEALING in df. You can add or subtract shroud at the start of that rotation or end just mp management.

You are an idiot if you are using provoke for anything other then pulling back a mob you lost agro on or taunting off another tank.

Will it kill you? No. Do you look stupid for using it? Yes. There are other abilities which generate Threat while also pulling the mob. Your logic is flawed and this post is a troll thread.

[karateorangutang]

You are an idiot if you are using provoke for anything other then pulling back a mob you lost agro on or taunting off another tank.

Will it kill you? No. Do you look stupid for using it? Yes. There are other abilities which generate Threat while also pulling the mob. Your logic is flawed and this post is a troll thread.

I disagree, but its pretty obvious that you don't like to use a button more than once a dungeon. That's fine i suppose. If you cant figure out how to stop with a large pull, allow the DPS to start rotations to build DPS and grab the last group with a long rang oGCD and group aoe them on arrival then I suppose there are bigger problems. I do this constantly and it shaves time off dungeon runs and has never, i repeat never, resulted in a death of a DPS or a healer.

If you don't want to use it as such then that is fine. Don't call a person who is trying to make a point, and a valid one at that, and idiot simply because you don't agree. Kindly present a coherent point instead and you might even get into a intellectual argument as to why you think the way you do.

[Malicewolf]

Yes, you could pull mobs this way. You could also just not stop and pull a mob until the last mob you want. Sure, dmg mitigation is easier when you have less to worry about before pulling the next mob on you instead of having 10 full hp enemies hitting you at the same time or having 7 hit you for the 1st 30 seconds, then pull the other 3 to you a bit later. But provoke can only grab 1 mob at best. Usually, mobs are 3-4. So by no means is this ever really gonna result in a big mob pull unless you already pulled a lot then stopped on the edge of the next mob. Then yes, it will save you a bit of time. It's not wrong. It's just also not needed. Either way, you're going to have to recoup after the big pull for caster's MP and everyone else's TP.

If this is your tactic for doing 2 mob pulls (1 initial and 1 pull in) then I honestly don't see it saving you that much time. Shadowflare might take a bit to put down if a SMN doesn't use their swiftcast for it, but otherwise, they can put down another AoE if they really need to (and for a small mob, you could easily just burn through them anyways).

Once again, sure it could save some time. But if you're counting the seconds in a dungeon, I think you're going to have a bit of a rough time regardless. Honestly, my fastest run through in a dungeon was by doing single mob pulls and just blazing though them quickly 1 by 1. We required absolutely no stops for anyone to build up TP or MP at any point.

Using provoke in this manner won't kill you. But nor will using hallowed ground on a trash mob of 5 enemies. Sure. It helped. It wasn't necessary though. And now you don't have it if someone made a mistake later. Now apply it to provoke. You use it to pull mob into an earlier pull. You lose track of one of the enemies and it goes running off to hit your healer and you didn't notice until he got too far away from your shield lob and healer is running away from you instead of towards you. Now, don't you feel silly you don't have your provoke and have to move an entire mob out of your DPS's AoE to grab that one enemy because your DPS don't focus on burning the rampant one as 1st priority.

You can say "a competent tank won't lose aggro in the first place" all you want. But mistakes happen to everyone. Sometimes, I pull 15 enemies and they are all freaking huge on my screen blocking my view from being able to easily see what's happening. I'm going through my rotation on them to hold enmity, but WHOOPS! 1 happened to get pulled by someone else and because of the 14 other huge monsters infront of my screen, I didn't see it right away. It happens. I'd rather my tank (or me) be prepared with a provoke for THOSE situations instead of going, "lol I used provoke to pull that other mob, let me build up enmity while you get pommeled to the face".

[dragonkyn20]

When I tank, I save provoke when I'm pulling multiple mobs and I can't reach the farther ones, or when I lose aggro due to me slacking off a bit too much. Using it to pull EVERYTHING means less emergency usage when something unexpected happens.

[Iagainsti]

You want to tell new tanks what to do? Tell them Provoke only puts you at the top of the aggro list, does not generate aggro itself. So if aggro is 0, then you're now topped at 0, so provoke is not a good pull. A true pull utilizing provoke goes Toma/Lob>Provoke>Toma/Lob; with that no HOTS or DOTS will take said mob. Trash pulls with provoke are moot also; a speed run pull all mobs to the boss situation should have the tank just running through the pack Flash/OP, not range pulling.

[karateorangutang]

snip

That's all well and good, and I even agree with most of your post. However, dismissal of provoke as a pull option just because it isn't common practice does not make it invalid, or even in some cases a superior option. It's great for gathering adds additionally when they spawn so you don't have to move a boss, or a large mob. This would allow melee DPS to keep their positionals easier.

As I said before if you don't wan't to use it as such then that is fine, it won't hinder in anyway. I just think that an quick oGCD yank of a mob in your direction to either allow DPS to get going faster, or to take a corner faster isn't necessarily a bad thing. It all comes down to play style, if your an aggressive tank, then provoke is in most cases a somewhat repetitive ability. It also has a very short cooldown. If your comfortable then using it outside the box is completely acceptable. If not then it's still a incredibly useful "oh crap" tool.

I just hate when people come in and mindlessly dismiss an idea without thinking about it. A hammer can push nails into wood, but it can also remove them.

Additionally, my fastest runs through dungeons were never 1 to 1 pulls. If that's your experience then that's great, but I would be willing to put money forward that this isn't the case most of the time. Every DPS in the game at this point will output greater damage in a 4+ mob situation by leaps and bounds.

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

I don't think Provoke generates any enmity, period. All it does is put you to the top of the aggro list. If I voke pull something and the healer casts Stone Skin on me before I get to follow up with a Shield Lob, the mob instantly aggros on the healer.

..Provoke does less than the standard action enmity (besides moving the tank to the top of the enmity list). A Provoke followed by a scholar using Eye for Eye or Aetherflow, for example, will result in the mobs targeting the scholar.

First and foremost, understand what the skill does exactly. One must follow up a provoke with another skill.

I’ve never provoke pulled a dungeon mob, I rarely use it at all in dungeons in fact. I do however use the hell out of it in A2S. In my static, I am the tank that is in charge of gathering the mobs up. I have found that the use of provoke as an off GCD (ranged attack <target A>, provoke <target b>, ranged attack <target b>) is really useful when I need to generate hate, but I am still at range because I had to go pick up the spider tank and get it to move first.

Touching on the OP’s initial statement, if you are the person giving advice, you MUST consider the player you are giving advice too. There are basic, intermediate and advanced strategies to tanking, and if the player is still at the basic tanking stage, advanced strategies can do them more harm than good. I wouldn’t tell a leaf to pull with provoke. I would encourage the more stable path to aggro – throw + aoe. You must learn to crawl before you can walk.

[Saccharin]

A true pull utilizing provoke goes Toma/Lob>Provoke>Toma/Lob; with that no HOTS or DOTS will take said mob.

Why would you use provoke then since you would be top of the enmity list, having just pulled with a shield lob/tomahawk That's beyond stupid.

[Shurrikhan]

The only advice I can give that would be reliably give with equal relevance to all player levels is usually "read its tooltip, and think for a second". Provoke is oGCD, unlike your throw. It has more range than your throw. It brings you to max threat, useful to saving people, unlike throw. It has a 40 second CD, unlike throw. I can only hope thereafter that they might consider any of the following:
- Is it likely be more useful within the next 40 seconds?
- How much is it worth to me right now to facilitate this pull by attracting (almost zero) threat on this mob?
- Could I easily do the (nearly) same without provoke?

Heck, face-pulling has more use than many would seem to think, especially when low on TP or MP and paired with minor oGCDs (the use of which should still cause helpful enough mitigation during the pull to make up for not all attacks hitting you at once, or less mitigation than post-pull). Run past, oGCD if you get a hasty Regen to keep threat until the first tick, and Overpower/Flash as soon as they're all in the cone/circle (almost always ready before that first tick). If it misses one, voke as soon as that tick is going off while adjusting to hit all. 120 TP / Flash mp saved. It's just that if you wouldn't need your GCD ready within the next 2.5 seconds or so (or wouldn't be able to hit the whole mob group within that time) and you're not strapped for TP/MP, why not lead with a throw so your SMN/SCH can start stacking up their DoTs, or your melee can start comboing/winding up on it while moving with you to the mob gather point?