Absolute frustration at not being able to see my own DPS (ps4)

[Kaurie]

To assume that by adding an app that throws numbers out will somehow magically make all DPSers better is a false conclusion.

It's about the same as concluding adding an app that throws numbers out will somehow magically make everyone jerks. Neither is true; however, both are partially true. The app may make some people better, and the app may make some people more toxic. However, it's possible that the app will reduce toxicity in some scenarios (such as being able to discuss DPS rather than blindly kicking or raging). YoshiP himself stated that the userbase of FFXIV tends to be more mature than the average MMO, why don't we prove him right? Further (as noted 100x in this thread), there is already harassment in the game and already ways to address said harassment.

[Odett]

People have stated a positive outcome.. not positive outcomes. The negatives FAR outweigh any "positive" it "may" bring to the table. You want DPS to get better, have Yoshi P force them to go through tutorials that show them the simple rotations, the positionals required and the weaving of skills between other skills. To assume that by adding an app that throws numbers out will somehow magically make all DPSers better is a false conclusion. And as you said, jerks will be jerks.. and now you are giving these jerks more tools to be even bigger jerks with.

Did you read Stupiduglytaru's post? Because I've also been met with instances like those, where the lowest parsing person will blame a wipe on someone else, and in their instance, thankfully, someone with a parser was there to prove that taru's DPS was the highest. More often than not, actually, the worst player in the group is often the one who has been the first to point fingers after a wipe, or blames their death on anything but themselves, be it lag, a tank, or more often, a healer. Adding a parser would help console players mess around with their rotations in fights to see what gets them the best DPS, help healers see how much they are overhealing, as well as see damage taken, would allow people to discuss why and see what was the problem in a failed DPS check when every member was alive instead of wondering what went wrong, and disprove low DPS group members who point the finger at other DPS jobs for their own lack of responsibility. None of those are "mays", those are all facts that you can reinforce with cold hard numbers. The downsides? Adding a parser "might" make already-toxic players more toxic, yes, but again, that's a hypothetical situation, and many of you are making this situation to be MUCH more prevalent and often than it is actually happening, and the only way to really find out is by implementing this tool to be used on consoles as well. Again, you can still report people for harassment, that won't change.

[Stupiduglytaru]

Honestly does the anti parser side just want a on screen pop to say excellent, great, amazing everytime they press a button?

When mch was first introduced, it was excluded from most content due to its low dps, non parser uses and parser uses both excluded this job from PF groups. Can you explain why this was the case?

If you are anti parser did you also follow this community wide exclusion?

I faced so much abuse why I played this job, just for being one and it was actually parser users that came to my rescue, in a Alex 1 normal run we enrages. The mnk immediately called for me to be kicked as mch was shit dps. A parser user kindly informed him I was highest dps......by a long way

[KaitlanKela]

A parser where only you can see your numbers. Make asking for other people's numbers a punishable offense under harassment.

The parser is connected to a lodestone "app" similar to what's going right now for PVP rankings. However, the app only displays the "average" and "high" numbers for each class for each boss encounter. Say I'm a DRG playing T5, and my personal parser gives me 500, but then I go online and I see that the average is 900 and the high is 1250 for a DRG on this fight (just throwing example numbers out). Time to go to the internet for some help. But if my number's 1000, I'm doing better than average and I probably am contributing to the group in a positive way.

This gives the benefit of benchmarks for reasonable performance for people who want to self-improve, but limits how transparent your numbers are. IMO, this solve's OP's frustration with minimal opportunity for abuse. I think it's a good compromise and I'm kind of bumping this because I would seriously like to know if anyone sees any flaws with this? It kinda got buried without any feedback.

I do want to make the point that I feel like it's silly for people to not want to introduce helpful tools into the game because it may make people 'toxic'. People are already toxic and people will always be toxic. I don't think that's a good reason to deprive the community of useful content. Personally, I always advocate for communication, fairness, and general decency on the internet, but I'm realist and I don't expect to see it all the time. I think if more people took that kind of mentality a lot of the anguish here could be avoided.

[Kaurie]

This gives the benefit of benchmarks for reasonable performance for people who want to self-improve, but limits how transparent your numbers are. IMO, this solve's OP's frustration with minimal opportunity for abuse. I think it's a good compromise and I'm kind of bumping this because I would seriously like to know if anyone sees any flaws with this? It kinda got buried without any feedback.

I hadn't replied, as others have suggested similar things and I've expressed my concerns with it numerous times.

if you click my name and see my posts, you'll easily find a few I am sure. However, the TLDR Is that I believe a personal parser will cause more problems for harassment than a group parser, and I think this because it will increase frustration amongst players. Studies have shown that frustration has been linked to destructive behaviour in video games. Further, I do not think that a personal parser would really benefit the pro-parser crowd to the appropriate levels of what a parser is useful for. In other words, it's more of a lose-lose than a win-win.

I do want to make the point that I feel like it's silly for people to not want to introduce helpful tools into the game because it may make people 'toxic'. People are already toxic and people will always be toxic. I don't think that's a good reason to deprive the community of useful content. Personally, I always advocate for communication, fairness, and general decency on the internet, but I'm realist and I don't expect to see it all the time. I think if more people took that kind of mentality a lot of the anguish here could be avoided.

While I fundamentally agree with the statement that some people are already toxic, the point comes that this behavior may increase. I think a good analogy is gun availability. Having guns increases homicide rates significantly (look at US homicide rates compared to other countries). However, that does not mean that homicides are exclusive to gun availability (people get guns illegally, people kill with knives etc etc.) All of that said, I am anti-gun and pro-parser. This is because the negative of homicides is significantly worse than the negative of harassment. Further, guns are designed to be used against others, where parsers are not.

[KaitlanKela]

However, the TLDR Is that I believe a personal parser will cause more problems for harassment than a group parser, and I think this because it will increase frustration amongst players.
While I fundamentally agree with the statement that some people are already toxic, the point comes that this behavior may increase.
-snip-

All good points, thank you for the feedback!

What I'm getting is that you (or maybe you're just representing the other perspective, I'm not sure?) are concerned that this will magnify harassment (either by the tool itself being abused or because of an increase in frustration as a result of the tool being abused)? Is there a reason you think that making parser-based harassment (and retaliatory lashing-out) a ban-able offense wouldn't curb the abuse at least to the level of 'toxicity' that we're already seeing? I'm no expert, but using parsers seems to be standard fare in Japan and they seem to have even more positive communities than we do in NA/EU.

I keep putting toxicity in quotes because it seems like such a scary word for something that's in the scheme of things pretty minor. I get kicked from some pugs. I can't get into statics. Meh, it's a game? The game provides harassment procedures and also plenty of opportunity to start my own groups/networks if it's a real problem (PF, FC and LS, for example). But I have to be honest with myself, if it's happening over and over again is maybe the problem me? A (personal) parser might help me figure that out.

Although I wouldn't be against level 50 and 60 rotation demonstration/tutorials like you suggested. That also seems like a good idea. The only problem I see with that is that low dps could also be a fight-mechanic issue or a gear issue, and learning the rotation in a tutorial wouldn't help you improve if that's the source of your problem.

You also mention that you don't think a personal parser would help sufficiently. IIRC (though admittedly I did only skim the thread), this is because a number without a benchmark or comparison doesn't have a lot of utility. I agree, which is why I think linking it into the lodestone which gathers data from all players and then provides the critical statistics for comparison, mean and max, would raise the utility of the parser sufficiently.

[Kaurie]

What I'm getting is that you (or maybe you're just representing the other perspective, I'm not sure?) are concerned that this will magnify harassment (either by the tool itself being abused or because of an increase in frustration as a result of the tool being abused)? Is there a reason you think that making parser-based harassment (and retaliatory lashing-out) a ban-able offense wouldn't curb the abuse at least to the level of 'toxicity' that we're already seeing? I'm no expert, butusing parsers seems to be standard fare in Japan and they seem to have even more positive communities than we do in NA/EU.

I am working to see both sides of the argument, but am pro-parser. I think parser-based harassment is already a ban-able offense, and that is why I don't think that we will see excessively increased amounts of harassment. However, I acknowledge it is a possibility.

You also mention that you don't think a personal parser would help sufficiently. IIRC (though admittedly I did only skim the thread), this is because a number without a benchmark or comparison doesn't have a lot of utility. I agree, which is why I think linking it into the lodestone which gathers data from all players and then provides the critical statistics for comparison, mean and max, would raise the utility of the parser sufficiently.

I really like your idea of linking it to the lodestone for increased data. However, I think that having that real time group numbers is quite useful for adjusting behavior. For example, a newbie at level 41 SMN may go to Cutters Cry, and at the same time I go in as my SMN. This newbie on his built in parser sees that I am pulling double his DPS, so he asks why and what he can do. Obviously, I'd explain that I am down-leveled and over-geared for the content and that is why there is some descrepancy, but would also take the opportunity to provide tips on his rotation. Conversely, without the parser, we both queue in, do the dungeon, say Hi and Thanks all and that's it.

[KaitlanKela]

I think that having that real time group numbers is quite useful for adjusting behavior. -snip-

You know, I've really been enjoying this exchange. And I like that you're fairly weighing the merits of both sides. Thanks for that.


I definitely think there's going to be abuse of a parser no matter what. I am 100% convinced. I'm not convinced that it's going to be handled by the moderation poorly. I believe SE can take care of the abuse, because the reporting/moderation is already a feature that they take very seriously and people have had success with it (At least regarding harassment. RTM, on the other hand >.> <.< lol).

I also believe that if we are honest and realistic with ourselves that most raiding PC users are already using a parser and that the PS players can't. That's just not right. Especially when PS players are being judged on their DPS and they may not even know there is a problem until they're told. And they may not even be told for a while, they may just be kicked repeatedly. At least if they could see their numbers, they might know why and have some idea of how to fix it. And they might be able to catch on and improve sooner. But right now PS users are just out of luck.

Regarding real-time group parsing: Taking your example, the app would provide information on average and max for CC in general, and the three bosses, by class. Hey, while we're dreaming let's throw in ilvl tiers for non-raid content. If he's paying attention he sees his dps is below average and he'll ask about it, same as before. Or he'll go online and ask. We lose two things by keeping it personal: 1.people offering advice as result of looking at other's numbers. People already can kinda tell if someone needs help and if they're inclined to help they'll do it, parse or no. 2.being able to get real-time advice on your specific class assuming there's nobody in the dungeon who can help. This is an inconvenience and it might be enough to raise some questions. I'll give that to you - it's a good point. It also still raises the issue of unfairness. As long as there's a real-time group parse out there and not in the game, PC players will have an edge.

I think at this point it's up to SE to determine the best solution. I think there are plenty of viable parsing options that would improve the game's meta that they could choose from. I don't think not giving us toys because we're children who can't handle it is a good rationale for pretty much anything, so I'm against that.

[Kit-Kat]

I just found the whole idea of it not being allowed because of harrasment kinda stupid. There will be harrasment with or without parser anyway. If I get into a party that's not meeting the DPS requirements for the fight thus not letting us advance, I would rather know who is holding everyone back and give advice or either replace. People would then complain they're being replaced because of a parse, but honestly, I would rather replace someone that is holding the party back instead of abandoning the fight and disbanding a whole party, which seems to be what's happening. So what do you prefer, replacing and eventually clearing content, or not fight said content at all because of disbands.
People need to stop acting like kids and victims. Are you being harrased in a normal dungeon because of your dps?
a) Improve.
b) Ignore them.
c) Kick them. If the kick doesn't go through, that means your playstyle doesn't match the rest of the party.

[Kazumac]

People have stated a positive outcome.. not positive outcomes. The negatives FAR outweigh any "positive" it "may" bring to the table. You want DPS to get better, have Yoshi P force them to go through tutorials that show them the simple rotations, the positionals required and the weaving of skills between other skills. To assume that by adding an app that throws numbers out will somehow magically make all DPSers better is a false conclusion. And as you said, jerks will be jerks.. and now you are giving these jerks more tools to be even bigger jerks with.

I have only ever been kicked for low dps in this game out of my 10+ years of playing MMOs. The only game I have been kicked is the one without a parser or at least a means to discuss quantifiable dps in a constructive manner. I was #2 dps (8 man content) during those attempts but could not actually defend myself other than telling them the problem was not with me.

I personally have only been negatively affected by the current state of dps affairs in this game. So all the anecdotes in the world, all the theories about wrecking the community and arguments for running races without stopwatches being good for the community don't seem more than fear mongering. The negatives for parsers are just as much "maybe scenarios" as the positives. Both arguments are filled with anecdotes and possibilities. My personal experience leads me to a different conclusions than the anti parser crowd.

Parsers will not make people better but it will let some people know where they really stand. I mean how many times have you seen a group failing on a dps check and the guy doing half the damage says. "Well it can't be me, I've cleared this before." Yeah buddy, I'm sorry you have no real gauge of your ability and previous experiences have led you to false conclusions.

The rabbit hole of removing tools to prevent harassment is a place I don't want to go. As you said jerks will be jerks. They just now have real information, so they are just educated jerks now. At least everyone is educated. If you get kicked for low dps and you are doing fine, you can laugh it off as I did in my anecdote. Or if you have low dps for the content you know you've got some learning/practice to do.

Why do we think having our head in the sand is a good thing? Why are we arguing to remain ignorant of how we perform? Why are we, as a community, letting a handful of jerks (or fear of them) determine what features we get in this game? This does not seem like a healthy outcome. I'm all for discussing curbing harassment but I personally don't feel limiting tools is the solution and I don't like fear of harassment determining the direction of our game.