Absolute frustration at not being able to see my own DPS (ps4)

[ShanaShirayuki]

was dismissing the possibility for abuse

No one here said parser related abuse never happens, they always admit that it does happen but not in the volume that you make it out to be. In fact if you just paid attention to a linked reddit thread that proves that it happens regardless, people may respect your opinion more. Alas, you conveniently ignored it as you do in every other parser-related thread.

[Kosmos992k]

No one here said parser related abuse never happens, they always admit that it does happen but not in the volume that you make it out to be.

Excuse me, don't put words into my mouth. Read what I posted. Tell me where I have quantified the volume of abuse that I think would happen. You can't, because I didn't. As for the linked Reddit thread, no, I didn't read it. If you have a point to make, make it, don't blithely link off to Reddit. You say I conveniently ignore something in every parser discussion, pray tell what is it that I am ignoring?

BTW, here's a little gem from the OP in your linked Reddit thread - "This is my own experience". So what is it that you think this anecdotal discussion somehow proves/disproves. Also, why do you think I am somehow conveniently (not sure why it's convenient, perhaps you can explain) ignoring it - whatever 'it' is?

Perhaps you ought to just go and actually read my posts above and see what it is that I am saying instead of responding to what you imagine I am saying?

[zosia]

-snip-
So what is it that you think this anecdotal discussion somehow proves/disproves.
-snip-

^claims evidence is anecdotal and discounts it as such
*uses anecdotal evidence to support their argument throughout the entire thread

You support a 2nd class system for ps3/ps4 users for the sake of potential outliers of harassment. There are solutions to harassment in this game and those solutions have been provided to you. Since GM intervention is not good enough for you, you rather keep ps3 and ps4 players disadvantaged to support your safe space of parser free abuse. Ironically, parser abuse already happens. People already tell other players that they are bad, suck, under-perform, elitist, tryhards, etc, etc, ect. That's why we have blacklists, GMs, the ability to close party chat, the choice to play with like minded people, etc, etc, etc. Those are all the solutions we keep providing you, but that's not good enough. I have a feeling nothing will ever be good enough for you.

[Ryel]

Excuse me, don't put words into my mouth. Read what I posted. Tell me where I have quantified the volume of abuse that I think would happen. You can't, because I didn't. As for the linked Reddit thread, no, I didn't read it. If you have a point to make, make it, don't blithely link off to Reddit. You say I conveniently ignore something in every parser discussion, pray tell what is it that I am ignoring?

In nearly every thread this debate happens whenever a study, or evidence lending to the pro parser side of the argument is raised you summarily ignore it and continue posting what you want to continue posting.

The reddit thread that Shana linked was from my earlier post which you seem to have skipped over because it didn't agree with your narrative of the situation.

Your argument is that harassment is a very real fear to a group of players, however i linked multiple sources that discuss that while a few players may feel that way, in game communities that include or allow public parsing features the results show that the overwhelming result if anything is apathy from the majority of the playerbase and that the number of harassment incidents border on the insignificantly small for the benefits the tool provides.

BTW, here's a little gem from the OP in your linked Reddit thread - "This is my own experience". So what is it that you think this anecdotal discussion somehow proves/disproves. Also, why do you think I am somehow conveniently (not sure why it's convenient, perhaps you can explain) ignoring it - whatever 'it' is?

Had you properly read the reddit thread that was posted (which by your admission you didn't) the player who admits that his findings are anecdotal and based on a admittedly small sample size line up with what many in this and all of the other threads that have discussed this are saying, that harassment concerning performance occurs with or without a parser i encourage you to actually read it this time as the results are quite interesting and very relevant to the topic at hand.

Why it's convenient for you to ignore it is the same as was said before, by glossing over or outright refusing to address any of the sources of various people (the developers of this game included) talking about how parsing isn't a real community fear your counterargument holds little weight if you can't properly dispute evidence contrary to your claims. It's exactly why your statements were likened to a "safe space" argument and other posters have tried to bring this fact to your attention as well.

Perhaps you ought to just go and actually read my posts above and see what it is that I am saying instead of responding to what you imagine I am saying?

This works both ways, i implore you to actually try to read some of the cited counterarguments to your views rather than repeatedly tossing up the same argument, one that has already been disputed to death already.

I'll happily relink the sourced material for you so that you have the opportunity to give it a proper read this time to better understand where the counterpoints are coming from.


WoW: Accessibility and Apathy

FFXIV Parsing: Is banning it actually preventing arrogance, or fueling it?

Lindsay talks w/Naoki Yoshida - Final Fantasy XIV PS4 Beta Event

The Real Problem with Parsers

[Archaell]

...

Kosmos, the harassment feared in the parser threads is not a real issue. That's the problem.

If somebody brings a real case of harassment and people involved in it, then we can try to find a solution. Talking about what if... No. That's not going to lead anywhere.

But! We could talk about what can each individual do on their own to prevent or stop harassment related to the performance.

The first anwer is - Git gud. I am not joking. If somebody fears that their performance is not good enough, then the answer is to practice and improve.

If somebody gets harassed in your group of randoms what can you do? You can tell them to buzz off or you can vote kick them. It is totally possible to take the side of the less skilled players who were forcing you to wipe again and again.

It is also possible to create anti-harassment linkshells to help other players with their problems.

That's what we can do. We can't stop harassment from happening, we can only deal with it.

[Azazua_azura]

If somebody brings a real case of harassment and people involved in it, then we can try to find a solution. Talking about what if... No. That's not going to lead anywhere.

But! We could talk about what can each individual do on their own to prevent or stop harassment related to the performance.

The first anwer is - Git gud. I am not joking.

I have actually brought up a case of harrassment so you can't really say that.

This is what happen:

I was a lvl 28 pgl in haukke manor, the other dps was a lvl 32 mnk. The tank kept pulling to odd locations but i did my best to do my positionals, I was shacky because I'm not used to playing pgl monk like that due to the difference between 2.0 and 1.0 versions. I'm leveling it to get mantra, just fyi. Anyway the mnk would constently switch targets to make sure he was attacking the mob first, we did the dungeon fairly quickly and only death was mine on the main boss only because people was ignoring the lamps and adds and healer wasn't curing me. they beat it and i warped and ran back, the mnk said before leaving " Azazura, you suck dps," then left.'

Another case happen while on a dif character where i was vote kicked over not using dots as a smn on 1 set of mobs before the second boss in neverreap, feel free to hate me for this but due to coordination issues I use macros on a few jobs so its easier for me to do certain stuff. Mostly Dots + bane stuff like that. Only reason i didn't do dots on that set of mobs was due to not wanting to waste dreadwym stance and deathflare. the healer spent the dungeon spaming "caster dots" even though I was doing my dots.


I have also seen cases of players going ham, causing wipes because the group couldn't handle how much that 1 person was outputing. And that 1 person blames the group for sucking. One case being when i tried out garuda extreme. I loaded up and told the group i was new, they told me to off tank, and i said I may be better as a main tank because I didn't off tank hard mode, but i said I'd try. when the adds pop the group help me out by marking where I had to go. I tried to pull the first add and this bard who out geared me was going ham on it taking hate right off the bat causing us to wipe. I apologised, then asked the bard (nicely) to give me a sec to do my role before going ham. He gave me a snarky reply and just kept doing it, causing us to wipe a few times. The group was giving me tips and i did my best to follow them, but still bard pulls hate adds go berserk bard throws a fit blaming me. Even though he was the one causing wipes.

I have also saw cases in ff11 over windowers Parser program became a thing. Even in leveling parties became nasty to each other over dps. More so in abyssea generation with the "gear swap or bust" going as far as claiming gear swaping was a thing since launch (it wasn't)

Personally speaking I have seen this debate since Launch of WoW and the increase in MMO popularity, and people try to back up their side (mostly pro parser) with the same rehashed arguments and excuses blaming the game content being "too hardcore" saying its needed/required and reashing the same argument that if you disagree you're a bad player.

Sorry to burst the bubble but none of these have been logical or accurate, filled with fallacy. And is simply player opinion.

If you feel you need to use a parser and don't mind the risk of being reported on feel free to use it.

My personal opinion is players are weaker for using all these third party tools to play, but they are free to use them, I personally rather not use them and become stranger in my own way. Their should be nothing wrong with that,

I also feel kicking a person out for low dps is harrassment, a high dps comes from 3 main game factors and 2 outside factors, which are
1) gear
2) class/job understanding
3) Experience with content.

With in this set a person will have a high dps if they are greatly geared know their job inside and out and know the content inside and out. Where a low dps person might have 1 or 3 things against them such as laking gear, still learning their job or still learning the content. Thing is gear comes with beating content, job understanding comes from how the person learns which is a spectrum of ways. And a big one being experience in content. If a player is kicked out often how can they learn the content well enough to produce high output

The two outside factors being System you play on and internet speed. This varies player to player high dps may have the best pc in the world and best net in the world, and the low dps might be laggy due to iffy internet or their pc or ps3 is old and can't afford a ps4 or newer pc.

And wgat I learned in DCUO with the parser is how easy it was to manipulate to have a high dps, I played a a sorcery hero with a staff weapon I mainly used the pet side and found out if a freely switch my dps and healer stances placing my aoe dot having my attack pet out and using the main staf chain of sqaure button mashing i could top leaderboards. In both healing and dps because in healer stanced my aoe dot turns into an aoe regen, and my attacking pet becomes a healer pet.

I wasn't even trying to out dps anyone nor did I feel I was playing well. But i top dps regardless simply because i was doing dot and weapon damage across a ,l a wide area hitting more mobs.

[Zeonx]

I have actually brought up a case of harrassment so you can't really say that.

I have actually been harassed myself and had to report it.

Nobody died we were heading to the 3rd boss duty the keeper of the lake and we begin fighting healer cannot keep tank alive he keeps eating Aoes while I was the last one to die, we get up there he stops everyone and begins ranting about How I killed him.

He keeps bringing up he has a parser that its my fault this and that, I said look man I am dodging aoes doing my job of course my DPS is gonna be low I am not taking hits like you are, he starts cussing me out just putting me down trying to break me down to his level, I said basically look I know what you're doing you are trying to make me cuss you out and call you names.

Like you are doing to me so if I GM you for using a parser you going to look like the good guy, he cussed me out called me told me I was stupid and kicked me.

Then I reported him for harassment for using a parser he kept bringing it up to like it made him the ultimate player.

But always someone on forums will condone their actions say people don't use parser's this way, maybe for some but they don't speak for the ones who do.

[Kezy_Kaatapoh]

I'm not arguing for or against parsers. I only replied in this topic because someone else was essentially telling someone who feared possible harassment to "get over" it, which I felt was dismissing the possibility for abuse. Subsequently another poster stated that the fear of harassment had been "brought up and disproven in literally every single" instance where this was discussed. I simply pointed out that you cannot disprove an emotion or feeling that another person has about something. If people fear harassment, it's a legitimate issue, and who are we to dismiss it? I pointed this out and well, you know the rest.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the argument you're making is that it doesn't matter why someone holds a fear, the fact of the matter is that they have a fear and it needs to be considered, no?

Assuming this is your argument, unfortunately, you cannot account for every fear someone has. There needs to be a point where you look at how rational that fear is. If SE were to take action to try and prevent every single little thing that a person takes offense to, we wouldn't be playing an MMO. We'd be playing a single player game. Everyone is different. The essence of human interaction necessitates that some people will not get along, some people will not communicate well, and some people will get offended. To try and eliminate any fears someone has of being offended or hurt means to eliminate all human interaction from the game. This is something that just CANNOT be done for this game due to its nature. It's an MMO. The whole point of it is cooperation and playing with others.

Just because someone has a fear doesn't mean it is founded in sound reasoning. Like I said, everyone is different, but at a certain point, a standard in society is created that bases what the general population considers to be an ok way to go about talking to people. Some people's standards require abolition of critique, or hyper politeness to the point of absurdity. These people cannot be accounted for because some standard needs to be set. What people mean when they say they "disprove" a fear is that the fear is unfounded based on principal of societal standards and proof of fact. People have fears of getting critiqued and/or insulted, and that parsers usage will make this more apparent than it already is. People have stated evidence to support that parser usage will NOT increase harassment any more than normal, and others have pointed out logical flaws in blaming parsers for critiques and insults (I should note, being critiqued should not be considered a bad thing, it's just the nature of critiquing that some people get offended easily by, but again, standards). You say parser supporters are ignoring the issue, but quite frankly, we're just saying it isn't an issue in the first place.

I'd also like to note, that in every post regarding parsers I see, you are far and away the most aggressive (and often insulting) in them, as well as take offense quite easily. It may help to step back and think about what someone's intent is or how they might be trying to say what they say.

[Rose-Wild]

I really wish i could see everyones DPS on PS4. But atleast being able to see mine would be a good upgrade.

[Fourbestintoner]

I don't believe anyone is going to expect 1500dps from randoms, I only want to be allowed to give tips without someone making a scene, crying parse and menacing a report to the gms, aka the hurt feelings police, I wouldn't be a dick about it and doubt most people would, unless the person being criticized would first.
And if you're doing 500dps in Alex savage... Just what are you doing there? A hardcore raid for hardcore raiders, when you don't even know how to play your class.