healer vit points

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Snip

Would you bring a high wizard build for wind damage to a wind element resistant grind zone? Or worse: On monsters that completely nullify or even absorb the damage. Or would you bring said wind wizard to the following MVPs:
Amon Ra - 0% wind damage
White Lady - Gets healed from wind damage
Or any other wind/earth based MVP

Or would you bring a Magnus Exorcismus/Turn Undead priest to a grind zone with no undeads or demons at all?

The moment you reset your skills to be able to do any of that is the moment you lost your "freedom of choice".

[Eothas]

Would you bring a high wizard build for wind damage to a wind element resistant grind zone?

Or would you bring a Magnus Exorcismus/Turn Undead priest to a grind zone with no undeads or demons at all?
.

You are right about that, they would be useless in these circumstances. I wouldn't bring them. But they could still be effective in the areas that they choose to master. They knew from the beginning they would have weaknesses.

For example, Soul Linker Esma pre renewal could destroy some MvPs if played well, solo mind you. But they were almost useless in PvP and WoE. While a Full Support Soul Linker is fantastic for WoE.

And thats what is fun in Ragnarok and other old MMOs, characters have clearly pros e cons, thats what IMO adds flavour to the game. I don't like the homogenization of MMOs nowadays, that any class can do pratically everything. But thats my opinion.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

snip

Effective in the areas they "choose" to master would be useless for a great majority of the content, resulting them being locked out or alienated from anything but their "specialisation". The more extreme example: Turn undead priest. It's useless for everything that's not undead and anything that's immune to instant death effects. Not to mention completely useless for PvP content. Considering the required stats for it and if a player would choose such a build, it would only make them useful for one purpose: undead PvE trash grinding. Of course, said player could "choose" to reset their skills and stats to fulfill other needs. But that would simply mean they're being funneled by the community (and the game) to be useful with their class for endgame content. If they "choose" to temporary go for the grind build and later reset into more useful endgame builds, it's nearly the same story.

So let's go for an even more extreme variation: Mace acolyte/priest with agi, dex and str build. Someone decided to "choose" this path/build. This was actually a thing back in the early stages of the game for the lone wolves. But would that be accepted by the community and be invited for any form of content?

[VanilleFang]

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack your back and forth, but I'd have to agree with Lyrica. Games like WoW and RO appear to give the player choices in how they want to "build" their character. The truth is that there will always be the "preferred", or most optimal, builds. If you don't use these builds then you will most likely be looked over, or replaced, by someone who does.

[Ashkendor]

I mean... you're talking about a meta where even tanks don't stack more VIT than they need. There's no reason whatsoever to stack VIT on a healer outside of PvP. It's completely detrimental to both your healing and your damage to take away from your primary stat like that. You keep coming back to the spell speed and how much that helps, but that's completely separate from the MND.

[Eothas]

...

I never said that all skills and builds are useful in RO, there should have some common sense. In RO it's possible to level a wizard full melee, would take forever and would be useless - for obvious reasons -, but it is possible. The same for Turn Undead builds, its for fun, for leveling, no one recommend this build since 2006, same as battle priest. But they were not useless in "majority of content", they just lacked some buffs at max level, like Impositiu Manus, and had less HP in turn for faster casts that could be useful for support, I actually leveled with alot of Magnus Exorcismus priests in Biolabs 3, their fast casts were really useful. That doesnt mean that there is only ONE effective build, thats spreading misinformation, there is multiple builds for a Full Support priest, there is multiple builds for the same purpose, for the same X oriented build.

More VIT be able to tank that weak guillhotine fist in WoE? Or should I have more dex to be able to cast that assumptio faster in PvM content? Should I use Long Mace to negate ranged damage or a rod with 4 fabres for a faster cast? I will need STR to carry more potions to survive 1h~2h inside the castle in WoE?

In renewal theres even more possibilities for a priest, and priest are one of the classes with less customization in RO. An archbishop could choose from ALL attributes in renewal, even LUK is useful to prevent negative status like Howling Mandragora.

Excuse-me, but I have never seen a unique build in RO that the community accepted as the only right way to build, and I played in hardest content where players were always trying to optimize their characters. Similar builds? Sure. The exact same build? Veeery rarely. Even in old times was accepted for a wizard to give up on some DEX to put some vit to be not perma stunned by dancers in WoE. Others would prefer full dex to cast faster, all were accepted, some prefered, still it was really rare to see people with the exact same attributes and skills. Almost all were useful. Some would be a little more in certain content, others a little less, etc... and the list goes on.

Also, my final .02c: Please, bring me THE BEST FULL SUPPORT SORCERER BUILD, if it is so accepted in the community, you will find the perfect build written with a quick google search. Point is: If you are saying that is impossible to bring customization to FFXIV, then I agree, fine. But saying that its impossible in any MMO is a blatant lie, not all MMOs are based on math only. For most maybe, but every? This is streching it.

Most Ragnarok players could list 2001 reasons of why they stopped playing RO. Lack of customization is not one of them.



ps: sorry for my bad english, its not perfect, but I'm sure you can understand at least.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Also, my final .02c: Please, bring me THE BEST FULL SUPPORT SORCERER BUILD, if it is so accepted in the community, you will find the perfect build written with a quick google search. Point is: If you are saying that is impossible to bring customization to FFXIV, then I agree, fine. But saying that its impossible in any MMO is a blatant lie, not all MMOs are based on math only. For most maybe, but every? This is streching it.

For starters, you have the wrong idea about what my standpoint is. I'm not saying "customisation" is impossible for FF14. But the ability to choose your own preferences is merely an illusion. Or rather: Choice is an illusion. You're even mentioning it yourself: It can be fun or unorthodox and you even mentioned it yourself that some skills/builds are useless. But in the end you'll have no choice but to change your initial skill pick once you hit the brick wall that a soloist cannot climb over. In case of Final Fantasy XIV, you could go for your own rotation if you want. Anyone that's aiming for the highest DPS ceiling will always go for a certain rotation, however. Ergo: Your "choices" are being funneled by the community. I hope you understand you're also part of the community that's doing the funneling as well by just this particular sentence:

I never said that all skills and builds are useful in RO, there should have some common sense.

[Eothas]

.

I know what a Illusion is. But what you are trying to say is: If I can't be a Melee Wizard, then there is no choice. You are wrong. A build --can-- be effective and still be different. No, a battle priest will not be effective in end game content, but a Full Support can be effective and different from another Full Support.

If I go back to play Ragnarok, like right now, I'm sure that I'll not have the same exactly build as anyone else, and I'll still be effective, and no, I'll not be under performing. In Ragnarok you don't need the "most DPS as possible" or "Most HPS as possible", everything can be very subjective.

In Final Fantasy you need the most DPS as possible to pass DPS checks, you put all skills in a calculator and do the math "This skill will have X potency with X debuff, I'll do X DPS so X rotation will always be better".

Now how you will put in a Calculator skills like Magnetic Earth? Dispell? Spell Breaker? Hide? Cloak? Safety Wall? "Please Don't Forget me"? Kaupe? Kaite? Specially in a WoE scenario? Yes, there will be a X oriented prefered build for certain content, but you will NEVER see the same exactly build, and everyone following it, because its not needed at all. If anything, following guides without thinking in Ragnarok is a detriment to your character, because situations can vary A LOT. And even guides vary from guide to guide.

If you are saying that we have no choices because you can't be a novice lvl 99, or a melee wizard in end game content, then... well, thats your opinion.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Snip

You still don't get it. You're even repeatedly mentioning it yourself. You can be a melee wizard if you want to in RO. Or in case of FF14: You can be an arcanist with carbuncle at level 60. But will you get anything done like that? Or try and get into something more casual like a level 50 dungeon with the base class and no soul stone equipped. Will anyone invite you for your choice? Or will you even feel good about it, knowing you're gimping yourself with your choice? Doesn't matter what you pick. If it's not in line with what the community needs or want, you'll either:
Lose your "freedom of choice" by doing what the community wants or "suggests"
Lose out on a good chunk of content of the game

Go ahead, I dare you to enter a random King Thordan EX PF as a Conjurer - Assuming your main job is White Mage as your profile states. Not equipping the soul stone is a "choice" after all. It even gives you access to some cross class abilities. Now I don't need to know the result, as it can be faked by going in there with 7 friends just to prove a point. But that's also a choice that creates another illusion.

[Eothas]

..

Yes, I keep mentioning melee wizard, because you keep mentioning battle priest. No one in they right mind would be a Melee Wizard, that means that there is no choice in the game like you are saying? Obviously not. There is multiple decent builds for a full damage dealer Wizard/Warlock. Thats my point.

But you are trying to say that there is no choice because you will not be effective as a battle priest, because you can't play what you want. You are saying "Oh, but I can't be a melee priest, because the community will not accept it, so there is no choice." Which is absolutely untrue. You are trying to force this battle priest build, but you are not mentioning the other 1000 combinations of full support archbishop/High Priest that can be accepted.

You are trying to force the worst builds in existence to justify that there is no choice. But please, don't forget to mention the other 100 different builds that can and will be accepted.

I'm still waiting for the perfect build, for any class, that you keep saying that exists. In FF for Ninja its full DEX, simple, right? I found it in less than 10 seconds in Google, bring me a perfect build for any class in Ragnarok, then I'll believe you. Don't forget the skill tree, gear and cards combination.