Regarding the Localization of Haurchefant in the EN/FR/DE Versions of FFXIV

[Tenkuu]

I never got a malevolent vibe from him, and I know some other posters here feel the same way. As for the timeliness of my claim, my post history in the forum is publicly available. You can search for my posts at the time of 2.5 and see that I was saying much the same thing then. If you'd really like, I might even got bored and search for them myself.

Malevolent is not exactly the right term, but more like he could not give two shits what happened to you or your friends. I know some people who think he came off sounding downright asinine at Moenbryda's funeral, when really in the original he is making a mostly unrelated observation about Nidhogg being on the move.

Possibly. I freely admit that I only have Corvi's statement in the OP to go on here, as I don't really talk to any FR players, I don't think. And we're agreed that 2.0 Haurchefant was going toned down too far in EN, so I wouldn't be surprised if the other languages were less toned down. But the fact remains that they were toned down because their respective Loc teams were concerned about player reaction.

The french version's tone may have been toned down, but as far as I know, dialogue remained accurate.

I don't think it's fair to place it all on the EN community. It'd be one thing if only the EN team toned down Haurchefant, or if it was done over objections of the other teams or something. But the three non-JP teams all got together and agreed (without approval, sadly) that he needed to be toned down. Unless you'd like to argue that the FR and DE teams are trying to cater to the NA market somehow?

I think you probably didn't catch the undertones in what I was saying, which is that the english version is obviously catering to Americans with all of the Americanization and general dumbing down of lines. And from everything I've heard, btw, yes, the english version *is* the single worst version in terms of accurate translations. Which is what I was referring to more than anything specifically Haurchefant related. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Well, I meant "added in" as in "added to the game as a whole." That is, by the time the postmoogle quests and Thancred's disaster were coded, written, and translated, I think the Loc team had already realized their mistakes. I admit my earlier phrasing was unclear, though.

As for Thancred (and Longhaft) in general I think it generally comes down to the difference between things happening to NPCs versus to the PC. You're right that both these NPCs have reputations as a womanizer or a walking double entendre, but neither of them are really directed at the player character. I mean, most people laugh off Thancred's passes, but some people get upset at Longhaft's shtick. And the response to the Horse year Heavensturn event was...mixed. If their goal with the 2.0 quests was to minimize the people offended by Haurchefant's character, I can totally understand why they made the changes (again, went too far, though).

The changes would be understandable, except that we're playing a japanese game here. Oh sure it has international appeal and was made with all sorts of audiences in mind, but the japanese stereotypes still remain and are what fans who play this game over others look for. No one can honestly claim to not have known what they were getting themselves into when they come upon such scenes. And while Longhaft may be a particular sort of pervert, Thancred's flirtations are nothing that special since he is essentially the ladies' man archetype.

But...that's exactly my point. They chose not to use a trope because it's not something a NA audience would readily associate with heroes and allies. Unless you're saying that I was wrong when I said the trope didn't come up much outside of JP? If so, I'd say it depends how narrowly you define the trope. If the trope is just "lech/debauchee," then sure, it exists outside Japan. If it's supposed to be "ally who's a lech and hits on you hard," then I'm not so sure about its existence outside Japanese works. Granted, my overall knowledge of trope prevalence is far from extensive, so I'll concede the point about its prevalence; but the point about choosing not to use it still stands, I think.

I know what you mean now, but given the rest of your response, that honestly made no sense to quote, since you were talking about changes to Haurchefant's character to revert him to being more like his japanese self. It was just weird to see a quote of a trope that wasn't being used. Not that we didn't see it being used aplenty with Ilberd, imo.

[Viridiana]

The changes would be understandable, except that we're playing a japanese game here. Oh sure it has international appeal and was made with all sorts of audiences in mind, but the japanese stereotypes still remain and are what fans who play this game over others look for. No one can honestly claim to not have known what they were getting themselves into when they come upon such scenes. And while Longhaft may be a particular sort of pervert, Thancred's flirtations are nothing that special since he is essentially the ladies' man archetype.

I dunno. Like I said, the reaction to the horse Heavensturn event was pretty mixed from what I remember. Some people were outright calling Haurchefant's actions there sexual harassment on the forums. If that's how he'd been characterized from the get-go, how many players would have been repulsed from a character they're supposed to like?

[Teiren]

I don't think it's the job of localization to make players like the character or not. If stupid players view his behavior as sexual harassment, then I think that's their problem. I do understand the other side of this argument, but I'll always disagree with it. And actually, if you liking him is THAT necessary for the story, then the story should just be written better so that you get attached to it more naturally. Personally, I don't think you liking Haurchefant is required to enjoy the story, but it does make a huge impact at a certain point if you do, so I think his character was good one way or the other.

The only time localization should change anything is when it literally does not make sense when translated or if it really is dry. I don't deny that localization can be very subjective at times, but that should be the goal overall. Ideally you'd be able to infuse a lot of juicy flavor into the target language, usually English, but the moment you start altering like that it becomes way too easy to change things because you don't like them, accidentily or otherwise, and I consider that to be a horrible sin of localization, perhaps the worst. That's why I'd rather nothing be changed, even for the better. I don't trust people to regulate themselves after seeing travesty after travesty from people in groups like 8-4, Treehouse, Funimation, and NCSoft.

[KaitlanKela]

Okay, at this point I think we're splitting hairs here.

Guess what? Some characters and dialogue were changed by the localization team. Yeah, it was a mistake. Hence the apology. I think it was an honest one though, as I do think the trope would have make his less endearing to a western audience in general. Not everyone who plays MMOs in the west watches anime, and even those who watch anime still may be creeped out by certain cultural things. Fact: it happens.

Here we have a Dev responding to outcry, giving a personal apology, and sincerely saying that it will be avoided in future. We should be THRILLED that the Devs care so much about the quality of our localization and our satisfaction with it. They also can admit and learn from mistakes. 100% win here, I don't see the controversy at all. If you want to beat the dead horse about how is shouldn't have happened in the first place, welp, unless you know a way to make it so it never happened, you can't ask for anything more than this

[Atoli]

Again, the FR/DE versions did the same thing. You can't just wildly claim that it's one culture when at least three different cultures all made the same change. I mean, you can, because you clearly did, but it just makes you look silly.

Well, at least for Midgardsomr I can say that the German version was about 98% true to the original and very different from the "uuh, so mystical" dialouge of the English translation. I was really shocked when I read the EN version, because it barely gave any information at all.
I don't think there is anything wrong with giving characters a little bit of their own flavour in different languages, if it's something an audience just couldn't understand otherwise; but leaving out huge parts of information or changing a character completely is a problem.
Especially with the EN version; because except for Japanese, French and German, everyone else has to understand the English version too, even if they aren't native speakers. To someone like me, who isn't an English native speaker, all I took from Midgardsomr's dialouge was "Oooh I'm a mystical dragon who hates all humans and thinks any fight against you guys is totally justified. I also don't give a damn about what Hydaelyn says and will take her blessing away from you just for the heck of it, because I think you are not worthy of it anyway. Oh, and btw, I REALLY regret I can't be part of this war and kill all humans together with my children."
Yeah, that's KIND of different than what he says in the other 3 languages..
Maybe some people were able to piece his incredibly vague statements together to something friendlier, but at least I wasn't, and I can imagine quite a few other people, especially those who struggle with old-time English, arrived at the same conclusion as me.

Here we have a Dev responding to outcry, giving a personal apology, and sincerely saying that it will be avoided in future. We should be THRILLED that the Devs care so much about the quality of our localization and our satisfaction with it. They also can admit and learn from mistakes. 100% win here, I don't see the controversy at all. If you want to beat the dead horse about how is shouldn't have happened in the first place, welp, unless you know a way to make it so it never happened, you can't ask for anything more than this

I think this discussion mainly continues because there are some people who say they WANT the same thing to keep happening. And no one but 2 or 3 rude people didn't express their gratitude about the apology in some shape or form, but just because we are thankful to have a translation team that is able to admit they caused some kind of problem, shouldn't have us stop our constructive discussion about the translations and what the good or bad points about them are. I also think it's an important type of feedback to see that different opinions exist and to aknowledge them.

[Viridiana]

To someone like me, who isn't an English native speaker, all I took from Midgardsomr's dialouge was "Oooh I'm a mystical dragon who hates all humans and thinks any fight against you guys is totally justified. I also don't give a damn about what Hydaelyn says and will take her blessing away from you just for the heck of it, because I think you are not worthy of it anyway. Oh, and btw, I REALLY regret I can't be part of this war and kill all humans together with my children."
Yeah, that's KIND of different than what he says in the other 3 languages..

It's also KIND of different than what he says in EN.

The bold part above is directly contradicted in the EN text, the italicized part is somewhat contradicted, and the parts about hating humans (I assume you actually mean Ishgardians, who are predominantly Elezen, not Hyur) are...there, but Middy seems less committed than other dragons. As for his being "friendly," well, I wouldn't go that far. He's neutral at best in 2.5. But if you don't get the lines that make him out to be just testing us, I can totally see why people would think he's an enemy.

I definitely admit that EN!Middy is harder to piece together. I just kinda like his EN dialogue as long as the information is there (even if it's buried).

I think this discussion mainly continues because there are some people who say they WANT the same thing to keep happening.

Well, for Midgardsormr, sure. For Haurchefant, I think there's a fair consensus that 2.0 to about 2.3 was too toned down.

[Fenral]

As someone fluent in Japanese who plays in English with the Japanese voiceover, if I'm parsing the information I hear significantly different from the information I read, it red-flags the localization for me, and I generally stop trying to follow the text at the same time. It's an old habit piked up from decades of iffy fansubs, and not something I ever expect kick in in a professionally-translated work, but it happens with FFXIV more than it should. Not to mention a few memorable times I've been confused on a lore point in a non-voiced scene and switched over to the Japanese script to find what might as well have been a completely different scene, with completely different motivations and emotional intent. If we aren't allowed to feel the same across regions, are we even playing the same game?

[Tenkuu]

Guess what? Some characters and dialogue were changed by the localization team. Yeah, it was a mistake. Hence the apology. I think it was an honest one though, as I do think the trope would have make his less endearing to a western audience in general. Not everyone who plays MMOs in the west watches anime, and even those who watch anime still may be creeped out by certain cultural things. Fact: it happens.

Oh I agree, but part of not repeating a mistake or making similar ones in the future is to hear feedback on what their players found wrong with the original situation. Even some of the more negative comments have a point and will be taken into consideration. And this is not a Western MMO, hence the rest of your comment does not apply. And here's another fact for you: you have the right to be creeped out, but you don't have the right to not let others enjoy the game the way it is originally meant to be. We all deserve that. Also, a big part of why people might have been creeped out by Haurchefant during the one event where he was true to his character and not by Thancred is the fact that Haurchefant was originally introduced as being so very different from his japanese self.

Here we have a Dev responding to outcry, giving a personal apology, and sincerely saying that it will be avoided in future. We should be THRILLED that the Devs care so much about the quality of our localization and our satisfaction with it. They also can admit and learn from mistakes. 100% win here, I don't see the controversy at all. If you want to beat the dead horse about how is shouldn't have happened in the first place, welp, unless you know a way to make it so it never happened, you can't ask for anything more than this

Actually, it's not about asking for more than this, it's about pointing out what can be done better, at least in my case, and we know that they listen to the players so this thread is a useful one. And the way to make it so it never happened in the first place is easy: don't change stuff drastically, least of all character personalities.

[Tenkuu]

To someone like me, who isn't an English native speaker, all I took from Midgardsomr's dialouge was "Oooh I'm a mystical dragon who hates all humans and thinks any fight against you guys is totally justified. I also don't give a damn about what Hydaelyn says and will take her blessing away from you just for the heck of it, because I think you are not worthy of it anyway. Oh, and btw, I REALLY regret I can't be part of this war and kill all humans together with my children."
Yeah, that's KIND of different than what he says in the other 3 languages..
Maybe some people were able to piece his incredibly vague statements together to something friendlier, but at least I wasn't, and I can imagine quite a few other people, especially those who struggle with old-time English, arrived at the same conclusion as me.

Actually, this is pretty much spot-on his attitude in the japanese version. You're a nobody who's trampling his gravesite and comes in contradicting him and defending humans, with whom his kind does not have a favorable history, and all of a sudden he sees Hydaelyn's blessing on you but doesn't see any reason why you deserve it. So he tries you on for size *without* the blessing to see what the heck is so special about a nobody like you. He isn't friendly to you, but he isn't really hostile either, it's more of an arrogant sort of indifference where he's decided that he's in charge of being the living commentary on your life now.

I think this discussion mainly continues because there are some people who say they WANT the same thing to keep happening. And no one but 2 or 3 rude people didn't express their gratitude about the apology in some shape or form, but just because we are thankful to have a translation team that is able to admit they caused some kind of problem, shouldn't have us stop our constructive discussion about the translations and what the good or bad points about them are. I also think it's an important type of feedback to see that different opinions exist and to aknowledge them.

It's constructive to point out both the positive and negative, but the way some people have phrased things is perhaps a bit too strong. The only thing I will say though is that even with the apology, it doesn't fix the general issue of the translation being generally not that great, at least in the english version, and it has to do with a lot more than just Haurchefant. As long as those issues are excused with "localization", there will be complaints. It won't be a huge issue, but it will take away from the enjoyment of the game.

[Tenkuu]

As someone fluent in Japanese who plays in English with the Japanese voiceover, if I'm parsing the information I hear significantly different from the information I read, it red-flags the localization for me, and I generally stop trying to follow the text at the same time. It's an old habit piked up from decades of iffy fansubs, and not something I ever expect kick in in a professionally-translated work, but it happens with FFXIV more than it should. Not to mention a few memorable times I've been confused on a lore point in a non-voiced scene and switched over to the Japanese script to find what might as well have been a completely different scene, with completely different motivations and emotional intent. If we aren't allowed to feel the same across regions, are we even playing the same game?

This is pretty much exactly the way I feel. I'm not fluent in japanese, but I do understand where the most obvious differences are, and I end up mentally replacing the bad subs with what the text *should* be saying. That lore confusion you're talking about, I was reminded of it when in 3.1, I listened to Y'shtola talking about the Warriors of Darkness right before they attacked us: her english line is very short and vague whereas in the original, she explains that they don't feel tempered. Similar thing with the Warrior's lines, actually, they're just more interesting in japanese.