Regarding the Localization of Haurchefant in the EN/FR/DE Versions of FFXIV

[Viridiana]

Just look at Midgarsormr for example: his lines in the english version were horribly confusing and misleading

No they weren't. Plenty of us understood them just fine and tried to tell those of you who somehow didn't get it just what was being said, starting from day one.

After all, it is only the english version that gets so butchered

Right, it's not like the FR/DE versions have the same issue with Hauchefant or anything. Oh, wait, they do.

Just... no. Localization is not an excuse to butcher the translation just so they can cater to a single culture, and we all know exactly which culture it is.

Again, the FR/DE versions did the same thing. You can't just wildly claim that it's one culture when at least three different cultures all made the same change. I mean, you can, because you clearly did, but it just makes you look silly.

Besides, Haurchefant is no worse than Thancred. Remember Thancred's little problem in Rising Stones when 5 of the women he flirted with all showed up there at the same time? Not to mention that one mail quest guy with the Miqo'te twins who had much more suggestive dialogue than Haurchefant ever could.

You mean the ones that were added after they'd already started reverting Haurchefant towards the JP original?

Come on now, the only real difference between Japan and, say, America, in the use of this trope is that in America, this is usually played for laughs with villains rather than played straight with a good guy.

Haurchefant is intended to be received as a good and true ally, but some of his comments directed at the player could, if rendered in EN as it was written in JP, provoke a strong negative reaction for some players (this wasn't so much of a concern for the JP, as his characterization played to a certain arch type which exists in Japanese media of a loveable debauchee).

in America, this is usually played for laughs with villains

Haurchefant is intended to be received as a good and true ally

I rest my case.

[Cidel]

No they weren't. Plenty of us understood them just fine and tried to tell those of you who somehow didn't get it just what was being said, starting from day one.

Oh, here it is- the haughty "we (somehow) managed to read between the (nonexistent) lines" argument about how Midgarsormr's localization left nothing out, that usually creeps its way into these localization spats. When the NA and JP versions have been extensively compared and shown, line-by-line, exactly what the NA version omits, here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ersus_english/

And no, I realize that the same person is not responsible for these two instances (Midgarsormr/Haurchefant), and I don't feel the need to elaborate any more on the English representation of Haurche aside from the comment Brannigan dropped on the 1st page, but I find it ridiculous that people can claim to know the same details from NA Midgar's dialogue just as it is said in the JP's. That's almost as absurd as anyone claiming that they got the same "loveable debauchee" vibe on the same level as the JP's Haurchefant representation from the NA's localization.

More on-topic though, I don't think there's much left to discuss about Haucherfant's localization. Somebody had to apologize, so clearly something erroneous enough was committed.

[Viridiana]

When the NA and JP versions have been extensively compared and shown, line-by-line, exactly what the NA version omits, here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ersus_english/

And I'll offer the same challenge I always have. Show me anything in the fan translation and I'll show you where it is in the official translation, with very few exceptions.

But yeah, for Haurchefant I've freely admitted that I didn't really like the 2.0 translation because I think it went too far. But when someone in charge comes forward and apologizes and demonstrates that they're working to prevent similar issues in the future, that's not the time to slam them like some of the people are doing here.

[Cidel]

But when someone in charge comes forward and apologizes and demonstrates that they're working to prevent similar issues in the future, that's not the time to slam them like some of the people are doing here.

Agreed, some comments really are lacking tact towards someone who already apologized.

[Tenkuu]

No they weren't. Plenty of us understood them just fine and tried to tell those of you who somehow didn't get it just what was being said, starting from day one.

As Cidel said, nope. Midgarsormr's intent in and of itself was completely different in the english version, he came off as almost malevolent and to many people, as just generally being a jackass.

Right, it's not like the FR/DE versions have the same issue with Hauchefant or anything. Oh, wait, they do.

Actually, everything I've read about the french version implies that regardless of his tone, his lines were still more accurate than in the english version. The french versions of even anime are actually very good at translations most of the time; it's the voices they choose that tend to make you cringe.

Again, the FR/DE versions did the same thing. You can't just wildly claim that it's one culture when at least three different cultures all made the same change. I mean, you can, because you clearly did, but it just makes you look silly.

We're talking about who the english version is very clearly catering to.

You mean the ones that were added after they'd already started reverting Haurchefant towards the JP original?

I'm sorry, do you not know Thancred or something? He's the guy who, in a very early 2.0 Echo cutscene, is seen flirting with two women at the same time. He's also the same guy who, ever since 1.0, has been known to lavish countless women of all races with flowers and compliments. Also, nothing was "added in", it's content that was created in all versions at the same time and about which they just happened to make the decision to translate it right this time around.

I rest my case.

You just made a fool of yourself while proving my point. Corvinoobus explained what Haurchefant's character was meant to be received as, and you quoted my example of a trope that as a result of those intentions, was *not* used. Nice job tripping over your own feet there.

[Tenkuu]

And no, I realize that the same person is not responsible for these two instances (Midgarsormr/Haurchefant), and I don't feel the need to elaborate any more on the English representation of Haurche aside from the comment Brannigan dropped on the 1st page, but I find it ridiculous that people can claim to know the same details from NA Midgar's dialogue just as it is said in the JP's. That's almost as absurd as anyone claiming that they got the same "loveable debauchee" vibe on the same level as the JP's Haurchefant representation from the NA's localization.

There is nothing wrong with wanting accurate translations and stating why the ones that we got instead were faulty. This wasn't a message addressed at any individual translator, but rather generally at the translation team: the message to please make a better effort and even to rework the already translated stuff to make it more accurate if there's any possibility of doing so. I would absolutely love to have a 2.0 and 3.0 translation of a quality that's on par with the 1.0 translations. And no, localization is never an excuse for bad translations, it's just a lazy job. Corvinoobus did apologize for messing it up, and this shouldn't be ruined by people who will just pat anyone on the back regardless of whether a job was well or badly done. This was a bad job, it was acknowledged as such, and we should be encouraging them to do better rather than insisting that the bad translations are fine the way they are.

[Tenkuu]

And I'll offer the same challenge I always have. Show me anything in the fan translation and I'll show you where it is in the official translation, with very few exceptions.

This is a really easy claim to make after the fact, when you now know what was actually said in the japanese version.

But yeah, for Haurchefant I've freely admitted that I didn't really like the 2.0 translation because I think it went too far. But when someone in charge comes forward and apologizes and demonstrates that they're working to prevent similar issues in the future, that's not the time to slam them like some of the people are doing here.

Don't misunderstand, I was just pointing out what made it a faulty translation, not attacking anybody, and encouraging them to do better and even to rework the translations we already have if it's a possibility. I don't see why this should be impossible, and if they told us they would do it but it would take time, I would honestly wait however long it took to get actually accurate translations.

[Viridiana]

Replying to your points slightly out of order:

Don't misunderstand, I was just pointing out what made it a faulty translation, not attacking anybody, and encouraging them to do better and even to rework the translations we already have if it's a possibility.

I get that, and if I come across as hostile towards you it's because I'm very sarcastic, and sarcasm doesn't work well in text. So sorry if I come across as ruder than I intend. That said, the people I was replying to before you addressed me were definitely being very hostile to Corvi, and I don't think that's appropriate when he's coming forward to apologize. Now on to your main points:

As Cidel said, nope. Midgarsormr's intent in and of itself was completely different in the english version, he came off as almost malevolent and to many people, as just generally being a jackass.

This is a really easy claim to make after the fact, when you now know what was actually said in the japanese version.

I never got a malevolent vibe from him, and I know some other posters here feel the same way. As for the timeliness of my claim, my post history in the forum is publicly available. You can search for my posts at the time of 2.5 and see that I was saying much the same thing then. If you'd really like, I might even got bored and search for them myself.

Actually, everything I've read about the french version implies that regardless of his tone, his lines were still more accurate than in the english version. The french versions of even anime are actually very good at translations most of the time; it's the voices they choose that tend to make you cringe.

Possibly. I freely admit that I only have Corvi's statement in the OP to go on here, as I don't really talk to any FR players, I don't think. And we're agreed that 2.0 Haurchefant was going toned down too far in EN, so I wouldn't be surprised if the other languages were less toned down. But the fact remains that they were toned down because their respective Loc teams were concerned about player reaction.

We're talking about who the english version is very clearly catering to.

I don't think it's fair to place it all on the EN community. It'd be one thing if only the EN team toned down Haurchefant, or if it was done over objections of the other teams or something. But the three non-JP teams all got together and agreed (without approval, sadly) that he needed to be toned down. Unless you'd like to argue that the FR and DE teams are trying to cater to the NA market somehow?

I'm sorry, do you not know Thancred or something? He's the guy who, in a very early 2.0 Echo cutscene, is seen flirting with two women at the same time. He's also the same guy who, ever since 1.0, has been known to lavish countless women of all races with flowers and compliments. Also, nothing was "added in", it's content that was created in all versions at the same time and about which they just happened to make the decision to translate it right this time around.

Well, I meant "added in" as in "added to the game as a whole." That is, by the time the postmoogle quests and Thancred's disaster were coded, written, and translated, I think the Loc team had already realized their mistakes. I admit my earlier phrasing was unclear, though.

As for Thancred (and Longhaft) in general I think it generally comes down to the difference between things happening to NPCs versus to the PC. You're right that both these NPCs have reputations as a womanizer or a walking double entendre, but neither of them are really directed at the player character. I mean, most people laugh off Thancred's passes, but some people get upset at Longhaft's shtick. And the response to the Horse year Heavensturn event was...mixed. If their goal with the 2.0 quests was to minimize the people offended by Haurchefant's character, I can totally understand why they made the changes (again, went too far, though).

You just made a fool of yourself while proving my point. Corvinoobus explained what Haurchefant's character was meant to be received as, and you quoted my example of a trope that as a result of those intentions, was *not* used. Nice job tripping over your own feet there.

But...that's exactly my point. They chose not to use a trope because it's not something a NA audience would readily associate with heroes and allies. Unless you're saying that I was wrong when I said the trope didn't come up much outside of JP? If so, I'd say it depends how narrowly you define the trope. If the trope is just "lech/debauchee," then sure, it exists outside Japan. If it's supposed to be "ally who's a lech and hits on you hard," then I'm not so sure about its existence outside Japanese works. Granted, my overall knowledge of trope prevalence is far from extensive, so I'll concede the point about its prevalence; but the point about choosing not to use it still stands, I think.

[Eloah]

I'd just like to add to Viridiana notion about Middy. I too felt he was an ally, from his text. I did feel the text was vague, like he was trying to hint at stuff, and maybe he was, but I "sensed" the undertones of his voice and was able to piece it together. And everything I felt from his conversation happened in Heavensward, so it worked I guess. Had the scene not been voiced, I might not of gotten the same vibe though; since English is a more audible language and Japanese is a more visual one. Think about it this was, it's like when someone says they are fine, but you know they aren't, that they accept something but you know they don't, in more audible languages, undertone-sensing is easier. That being said had that scene not been voiced, it probably would be as confusing as some people have made it out to be.

[Cidel]

I'd just like to add to Viridiana notion about Middy. I too felt he was an ally, from his text. I did feel the text was vague, like he was trying to hint at stuff, and maybe he was, but I "sensed" the undertones of his voice and was able to piece it together.

Oh, I don't think much people doubted there was no real malevolent intent from Midagarsormr after his dialogue. You can at least figure out he is testing the player and he more or less says Ishgard is doomed. The issue I take with the NA script is that the JP script had more clarification, information, and a few extra tidbits that our version omitted in lieu of giving "the general idea" of the situation.

I don't think the changes to Midgarsormr's dialogue really change who he is as a character, but others and myself probably dislike the fact that the NA script might as well have been open to interpretation whilst the JP script had it all layed out there in the manual.