Tank Balance - Thordan EX 7-WAR 1-WHM Clear (Really SE?)

[Reynhart]

WAR is not competing with any competent DPS.

So, I suppose even those who clear Alex Savage are not competent DPS.
DPS Leader board

[Brian_]

So, I suppose even those who clear Alex Savage are not competent DPS.
DPS Leader board

Is that link supposed to prove your point? WAR is behind DPS classes by a considerable margin in all fights.

[Reynhart]

Is that link supposed to prove your point? WAR is behind DPS classes by a considerable margin in all fights.

Sorry, my point wasn't to prove that you don't know what considerable means.
A1S : MCH 1371.32 -> 1202.81 / WAR 1302.66 -> 1223.71 (5% gap at most)
A2S : NIN 1802.76 -> 1514.37 / WAR 1761.62 -> 1553.79 (2% gap at most)
A3S : MCH 1212.66 -> 1105.55 / WAR 1094.57 -> 1094.57 (11% gap at most)

And let's put DRK and PLD to the test with the above DPS
A1S : DRK 1163.64 -> 1055.24 (17% gap at most) - PLD 829.65 -> 778.68 (65% gap)
A2S : DRK 1431.36 -> 1158-47 (25% gap at most) - PLD 996.64 -> 918.18 (80% gap)
A3S : DRK 1120.84 -W 1034.96 (8% at most - finally someone close to WAR) / PLD 897.22 -> 785.29 (35% gap)

Stop denying WAR's prowess...

And tell me that tanks are balanced when PLD and WAR can have up to almost 80% gap in DPS, while WAR still have the same mitigation as PLD...

[Brian_]

MCH gives you Rook / Bishop and Hypercharge. TBF WAR also gives Eye but that only benefits the WAR (already factored in) and the PLD / DRK. You ever stop to wonder why MCHs are still brought to content despite what appears to be low DPS in a DPS meta?

But I guess.... OMG THE NUMBERS THEY TELL THE TRUTH.

A2S is the NIN's worst fight and the WAR's best fight. If you're going to nit pick your numbers when I said DPS CLASSES, SMN's A2S parses would like to have a word with you. As a whole across all encounters, DPS classes are ~15-20% ahead of WARs. That's a considerable amount. Regarding this topic and my point, there is not a single case where you can bring a full team of WARs and not lose raid DPS given equal player skill.

When you lose 100% of the time, you are not "competitive." You are quantifiable inferior.

I never said anything about PLD or DRK. I said that WARs are not competing with any competent DPS and they aren't. You aren't replacing the NIN in your static with another WAR because of their A2S parse.

And quite frankly, I'm getting tired of your misleading garbage. You say PLD and WAR can have up to almost 80% gap in DPS in reference to A2S. Then, you go on to say WAR has the same mitigation as PLD... when if you are looking at A2S, PLD has considerably better survivability than WAR. Top raiders are on the record saying that PLD helps a lot more than the other tanks when you are at low gear levels in A2S -- aka progression periods where balance really matters. Why? It's certainly not because they're dealing more damage.

[Reynhart]

But I guess.... OMG THE NUMBERS THEY TELL THE TRUTH.

So, DPS numbers don't tell the truth.
Kill time with WARs don't tell the truth
WAR's prowess than no other tank can do don't tell the truth.
Numerous testing of damage, utily and mitigation don't tell the truth.
BUT, your claim that WAR is not overpowered is the absolute truth ?

Little hint, when all evidence point that you are wrong...you probably are wrong.

As a whole, DPS classes are ~15-20% ahead of WARs. That's a considerable amount.

No, that's not ! WAR is a tank. He can easily have 50% more HP when compared to DPS, and probably the same gap in Defense. On top of that, when consideriong eHP, he takes around 40% less damage, and can heal himself to full once a minute. And he's also self sufficient when it comes to TP management.
A simple 20% less damage on average is a horrible imbalance favoring WAR over anything. That's why we see things like 7-WAR-Thordan.

If the DPS check is not ridiculously demanding, there's no benefit at bringing any DPS over WAR. And if the DPS is ridicuously demanding, there's no need to bring any tank except WAR. Besides, WAR is also the least penalized tank for stacking, since you could keep Storm's Eye AND Storm's Path full time.

[Brian_]

Why are you attacking a straw man? You realize that I am actually a PLD main, right? If you check my posting history, I have always posted in their defense.

The issue now is I have nothing to defend. I made no statements regarding PLD. Only that your point about WARs being competitive with actual DPS was wrong.

I said that the numbers don't tell the truth and that if you are going to use them to push the narrative of WARs being competitive with actual DPS, you're delusional. Your reply? Some unrelated BS about WARs being better than PLDs and DRKs.

Again, my point was that WARs are not competing with actual DPS. Would you actually like to provide any real argument otherwise?

How can I be wrong when all the garbage you just posted is unrelated to my point?

I would just like to say one word. Perspective. You have none. You haven't cleared any relevant content ever. You probably don't even play any tank class at a half respectable skill level. You only know how to cry, whine, and complain. Half your statements make no sense or are just false. If the DPS check is not demanding, you could bring a lot of unconventional comps. Does that mean those classes are OP? People 7 man Thordan EX when selling runs. I guess WARs are under performing since they need 1 more person. If the DPS checks are demanding, DRK is still a better choice than WAR for MTing because they deal more damage than WARs within that role. On fights like Thordan EX, PLDs fill that MT role instead.

Here is some more perspective.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...view?sle=true#

That's a DnT DPS leader board from the FCoB era before part of DnT split off to form Elysium with Collision. You see the WAR DPS there? You see the PLD DPS there?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...986353&vpid=A1

Check the bottom tabs for T10-T13.

WARs have always been putting out good DPS. This current situation is not new. While the gap between WARs and DPS might not be as small as it is currently, it certainly was never a huge gap. And, part of me wants to think that because it wasn't as necessary, it also wasn't as vigorously min-maxed. PLDs have always been comparable but generally lower depending on their ShO up-time and the WAR's OT up-time. Again, nothing new here.

Go watch the Mogtalk regarding Tanks (Warriors in more detail) with Layla and Xenosys.

The current state of tanks is due to issues of DPS that arose from design decisions in early Savage progression and a flock of brainless doomsayers that kept that snowball rolling long after the issues were no longer pressing. So, now, the snow ball has grown to the point that we get statements like "And tell me that tanks are balanced when PLD and WAR can have up to almost 80% gap in DPS, while WAR still have the same mitigation as PLD..." that lacks all critical thought, logical reasoning, and understanding. You think a statement so idiotic helps PLDs or hurts WARs? It doesn't. Anyone who knows anything knows how flawed that garbage is and it only furthers the idea that PLDs are idiotic cry babies.

[Reynhart]

Only that your point about WARs being competitive with actual DPS was wrong.

And again, WAR DPS is far too close to regular DPS. That's what is "competing". Yes, their numbers are generally lower, but the difference is far more thin when compared to everything WAR has to offer. Especially, when WAR's rotation to output really good numbers is far more easy than actual DPS rotation. And, while still doing great numbers, WAR are more forgiving against other mechanics since they're far more sturdy.

Some unrelated BS about WARs being better than PLDs and DRKs.

Oh, sorry, I believed the topic was titled "Tank Balance..."...silly me.

Lots of personnal attacks

Ouch, what a strong point. I have absolutely nothing to reply...good thing I have nothing to prove to you.

Oh, and by the way, since tanks balance threads are all over the place now, I'm sure everyone that complain is just the same as me while you still hold the very truth that there is nothing wrong with WAR. Again, a little reminder. This topic started with a clear video of a 7-WAR PT killing the most recent content as fast as any usual setup. So, it doesn't require a math degree to understand that since the boss has the same HP, for killing it with the same time, you have to output around the same DPS...

Here is some more perspective.

You call that "perspective" ? "Let's compare situations before WAR got absolutely everything that make it unstoppable now..."
You must be kidding...

While the gap between WARs and DPS might not be as small as it is currently, it certainly was never a huge gap.

Right, that wasn't a huge gap...WAR were around 20% lower than BRD, now they're around 2%...nothing to worry about, sure.
Did I mention that, while receiving tremendous boost to their DPS (With the highest one time potency move of every job), they also received more tools to mitigate and one of the best self-sufficient skill ?

The current state of tanks is due to issues of DPS that arose from design decisions in early Savage progression and a flock of brainless doomsayers that kept that snowball rolling long after the issues were no longer pressing.

Actually, no. The current state of tanks is not an aftermath of DPS checks in Savage. It's much more simple as that. Before HW, you only had two tanks, and it wasn't a very good idea to stack the same job. So, you'd bring both tanks.
And besides, back in the days, each tank has a favored position either for survival or DPS. PLD was more sturdy, and WAR could bring great things as OT if they didn't have to use BB constantly. For DPS, WAR was undoubtedly higher as MT, and PLD was very close, if not higher (Thanks to Slashing debuff), as OT.
WAR's new design made him the king of DPS in all spot, HW design favored DRK regardless of any DPS checks, and we still only need two tanks. That's what pushed PLD away. Its ability to survive as MT is totaly on par with WAR, and as an OT, all of its mitigation and healing skills are worhtless.

"And tell me that tanks are balanced when PLD and WAR can have up to almost 80% gap in DPS, while WAR still have the same mitigation as PLD..." that lacks all critical thought, logical reasoning, and understanding.

Please, enlighten me. What is the reasoning and understanding behind the current balance of tanks ?

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

Reynhart... Bro.... Broseph.... Bro Jangles...Brometheus....Broto Baggins.... You lost this battle a long time ago and just need to stahp.

What you seem to be failing to realise is that PLD is the issue, not WAR or DrK. PLD is the odd man out because DrK brings very near WAR levels of DPS just without the unlimited TP WAR has. It has become painfully obvious at this point that DrK/WAR are operating as expected and PLD is not.

As for what you consider "personal attacks" on you by bringing up that you have cleared no difficult content, this is a huge deal. You are literally commenting on things you have no first hand knowledge in. I too have made that mistake in regards to DrK. I was on the "DrK blows" train becuase I never really put a lot of time into them. Then this dude called Szgyan (or some shit like that) told me to turn the suck down and learn the class fully before I comment. Guess what, I did and after playing DrK a lot through Savage and Thordan I have really come to appreciate the class and realize that DrK is not that far off from WAR. So in essence what I am saying is go play all the tanks in REAL content and then you will see that PLD is the problem not WAR/DrK.

The only thing this video really showcases is the raw healing power of WHM. Honestly that is the most broken thing in it.

You are getting so annoying that I am in the process of putting together a team of 7 PLDs and 1 SCH to clear Thordan EX just to shut you up. Because trust me... It can be done.

On that note any Gilgamesh PLDs wanna blast Thordan EX out of the water with me?

[ArkNova]

Oh goody a friend was just asking me if there will ever be a 7 pld 1 healer or 7 drk 1 healer clear for thordan so good luck and please record it! try for 8 pld ravana clear too

[Kydi]

I'd like to try and put together an 8 PLD party on Odin at some point for Ravana - with 8HG, Clemency from the DPS tanks and rotating who is tanking I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. I can just imagine all 8 hitting shelltron just before sharing a blinding blade.