Astro needs a Nerf in PVP

[Kyani]

Instead of complaining why not find out what an astros weakness and exploit it. Believe me astro is way weaker than you just need a some common sense and a little bit of patience.

Part of the problem with Astrologian in Wolves' Den is that, even if you only queue as a full group, the teams are double-blind. You load up your team, they load up theirs, and you fight. Because of how powerful Astrologian's free-casting is, you HAVE to bring something that can deal with it... even though you're not guaranteed to be fighting it. This weakens all the classes that are bad against the same things (because they'll never go up against a team they're effective against) , and bolsters the classes that happen to be good against Astrologian's counters.

Strength aside, the interaction of Astrologian with other classes is the definition of format warping. I don't really know what will change (I like the Physick/Cure suggestion), but the current state of A. Benefic is quite unhealthy and will singlehandedly prevent a balanced meta from forming

[ZanzhizExaverion]

Taking away freecasting power from AST would take them out of the game, no reason to bring them.

And you must be paired with some god awful WHMs/SCHs

I feel like you aren't too verse in Wolves Den based on these comments...

First of all, NOBODY is well versed in Wolves Den with AST because there isn't a wide variety of top level PVPers out there to test and grind out how it works. WD besides FNF is dead besides win trades. And if everyone gets paired with poor players then yes, AST with it's imbalanced freecasting and free shield with a low skill ceiling IS a problem because it's impossible to deal with without coordination.

Freecasting will ALWAYS be superior to WHM/SCH, even if you want to keep defending the job or attacking the players who can't take them out. You can literally watch Joe's stream, a guy who has a PVP burst rotation as a lot of dedicated PVPers do, and watch him deal less that 20% of an AST's health, who stands still and just Aspected Bs himself and then the poor DRG needs to wait 75 seconds to do it again, but guess what, the AST has cooldowns again too.

[Houston009]

Now that I am done laughing.

First of all, NOBODY is well versed in Wolves Den with AST because there isn't a wide variety of top level PVPers out there to test and grind out how it works.

Just because you don't participate in wolves den daily, like many players on both Balmung and Gilgamesh (to an extent Faerie), does not mean it isn't happening. Primal servers have been running den as well.

Here:

https://xivpvp.com/wolvesden#

This even shows the JP groups running Wolves Den, which in case you didn't know, has been running Wolves Den even during its "supposed" death.

And if everyone gets paired with poor players then yes, AST with it's imbalanced freecasting and free shield with a low skill ceiling IS a problem because it's impossible to deal with without coordination.

PvP should never be balanced around players' inexperience or low level of skill. Many an ASTs have been killed even with in-coordination see AST deaths on FNF.

Freecasting will ALWAYS be superior to WHM/SCH, even if you want to keep defending the job or attacking the players who can't take them out.

You realize I understand the power of Freecasting, hence why I made my proposal earlier if you would care to read it. Taking the only thing AST has over WHM/SCH would make them unwanted in PvP. I will continue to say that player's inability to kill an AST is on their part. People expect to be able to 1v1 a healer, then once buffs/nerfs happen complains to their healer when their own healer falls over. You can keep accusing me of defending the job and you can even call it cheap if you want, but I have a very good read for you: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

You can literally watch Joe's stream, a guy who has a PVP burst rotation as a lot of dedicated PVPers do, and watch him deal less that 20% of an AST's health, who stands still and just Aspected Bs himself and then the poor DRG needs to wait 75 seconds to do it again, but guess what, the AST has cooldowns again too.

Not to knock on my boi Joe, but just because someone claims to have "the" PvP Burst rotation does not mean it's correct or being done fast enough.

Examples: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...urst-Rotations

Some of these burst "rotations" are mostly/somewhat correct (missing abilities), but the time it says to do some of those burst is just WAY too long. I don't claim to have "the" burst rotation, but whatever it is I'm doing is soloing ASTs on both DRG/NIN.

To you from:
- A versed Wolves' Den Player.

[xxczx]

First of all, NOBODY is well versed in Wolves Den with AST because there isn't a wide variety of top level PVPers out there to test and grind out how it works.

do i have to link to this again

https://xivpvp.com/wolvesden

pls

[Renault]

Hi gaiz.

I pretty much exclusively play AST in PvP and I can say this: Yes, they are powerful. No, they do not need a nerf. I believe WHM is actually the most powerful healer, at level 50, and even at 60, due to it's high utility and passive regen. Yes, you don't have spammable shields, but you DO have a kit filled to the brim with CC that you can dish out yourself, and some of the best defensive PVP abilities in the game.

Astro's are sort of the noob trap, for lack of a better term, as a less skilled damage dealer will have a really rough time taking one down without lining up their burst with a stun/silence, let alone coordinating a joint attack with another party members.

I have been killed by many players, even SOLO, and I consider myself slightly above average at AST pvp. Against a coordinated tank+dps, my mortality rate is extremely high unless I have equally coordinated defense.

[Kinseykinz]

The shield isn't actually "important" aside from being potency - it's an instant cast 603 potency heal, which is 603 more than SCH or WHM have on demand.

ummm....

The shield isn't important....

The shield protects the caster (any shield btw, stoneskin, adlo, or asts) from getting interrupted. Basic attacks, outside stuns/silence/sleep etc that hit a shielded player and don't break the shield don't damage the person...if a caster/healer doesn't take damage in pvp, then their cast is not interrupted. This means, once that 'shield is up' ON ANY CASTER (dps/heals), they can then buy time to do a bigger/longer cast time, cast.

The shield is also, basically is 'bonus HP' you have to whittle the shield down, before you can whittle (or continue whittling) the casters HP down. So, when they chain-cast Aspected Bene, you have to whittle the shield down every time, before you can take health.

And considering, that in order for the other 2 healer roles to stay shielded, they'd have to either not be getting hit long enough to reapply a shield w/ a cast time or use swift/sure cast to apply it, there is a slight edge, in this specific case, given to AST...based on the actual shield alone. So it's not the 'instant heal' that is the greater threat...it actually is the shield.

As related to Wolves Den:
While I highly doubt SE spent a lot of time making sure the AST PvE skill kit was well balanced at 50 for 50sync'd pvp...their PVP skill set is most assuredly not. So... on the one hand, AST is very stout in level 50 Wolves Den atm...but I don't personally know, that when it's 4x4 or 8x8, in level 60 play, the AST will be quite as potent.

To this I'm sure some will say 'but Seal Rock' .... and yeah, AST's are potent in there too...but part of that is because even though you enter in 'even' teams...your healer/tank/dps ratios aren't necessarily even...nor is your party/group spread even at any one time. One team might have 7 at a node while another team has 20 for example...or one team might enter with 2 healers for the entire alliance against 2 alliances w/ 4+ healers in each. And this unevenness factors in on AST's presumed 'op-ness' as much as it's actual skillset does.

[Kyani]

The shield is also, basically is 'bonus HP' you have to whittle the shield down, before you can whittle (or continue whittling) the casters HP down. So, when they chain-cast Aspected Bene, you have to whittle the shield down every time, before you can take health.

And considering, that in order for the other 2 healer roles to stay shielded, they'd have to either not be getting hit long enough to reapply a shield w/ a cast time or use swift/sure cast to apply it, there is a slight edge, in this specific case, given to AST...based on the actual shield alone. So it's not the 'instant heal' that is the greater threat...it actually is the shield.

Aspected benefic with a cast time is called Adloquium. While Adlo is very powerful (especially on crit), there's no one shouting from the rooftops calling for its head. I think it's safe to say that it's the additional property of being instant that gives Asp. Benefic its power.

What i'm saying is that an Asp. Benefic that was more shield / less heal, or more heal / less shield would both still be quite good, not that the shield half doesn't do anything: 400 healing and 200 shield or 200 healing and 400 shield would both be just as strong as the current version, with different strengths and weaknesses depending on exactly who is getting hit.

[Lilith_Merquise]

lol why even bother?

Nobody is calling for the head of SMN's that 4 step explode rush a person with Deathflare in seconds. Nobody is calling for the head of WAR slaughtering players with fell cleave and stupid high HP, Nobody is calling for BLM's sleeping entire parties for an ungodly long duration and letting group pick em off one by one as the only class that can do this.... Trust me if you're calling for AST healing to be on the chopping block, get in line there is much more that needs PVP toning down and AST is the least of it's worries.

[Kinseykinz]

Aspected benefic without a cast time is called Adloquium. While Adlo is very powerful (especially on crit), there's no one shouting from the rooftops calling for its head. I think it's safe to say that it's the additional property of being instant that gives Asp. Benefic its power.

What i'm saying is that an Asp. Benefic that was more shield / less heal, or more heal / less shield would both still be quite good, not that the shield half doesn't do anything: 400 healing and 200 shield or 200 healing and 400 shield would both be just as strong as the current version, with different strengths and weaknesses depending on exactly who is getting hit.

I'm not sure how you can have a level 60 sch and not know this but...

all of scholar's shielded heals have a cast timer (Well, sacred soil doesn't...but that costs a 1 aether).... so no, Scholar can't do the same thing as an AST. Furthermore, AST's shields in noct sect are more potent than an non-crit sch shield...and since you can't predict when a crit shield will happen, AST's shield protection is more reliable overall...and again, can be cast while running.

So yeah, it's the instant shield. The heals are butter on top


Still, I stand by, let it actually play out first 4v4 in level 60 content before just assuming AST (or really any other role) is too potent/skills need rehashed. Yes, AST is pretty boss in Seize...but that's in part, to how teams are spread and split up...and it part due to not having a specific party composition. But for what's coming up, you'll NEED a Tank/Healer/Ranged/Melee. So things will be more even...all of a sudden, SCH's fairy becomes more of a hassle again (for example), because she's effectively another player your team has to keep busy...SCH's fairies were less problematic in the large-scale battles b/c there were so many different potential groupings. Also, the CC skills Tanks, WHM and BLM (among others) now bring to the table also will matter more. So really, until everyone starts 4v4ing at level 60, in different party compositions, it'll be hard to tell if there's any actual OP-ness to the role.



As to...but AST still has their insta heal/shields, well,
WHM has
Assize, Benediction, Tetra,Regen, and Asylum from their PvE skills and,Scared Prism from their PVP skills ....ALL instant.

And that's a crapton more heals tbh overall than AST's simple Aspected Bene/Essential Dignity. Not only that, but their 'bubble' skills, they can plop anywhere and run in/out as needed as can their party...AST cannot do this.
WHM also has a fair amount of CC skills that didn't really turn the tide when standing against a full alliance of other people, but really do start to shine against smaller forces.
Repose, Fluid Aura, Stone (Heavy) Virus, E4E (albeit not traited), and chainable (but costly) stuns w/ Holy.

Meanwhile SCH has...
A tiny, pint sized freaking Healing buddy. ....that can be sent anywhere as well. So if people are trying to focus it, the sch can move it across the map...or it can be parked near a party member in need while the sch kites opposing team members. And that's just a small taste, not even getting into fairy's skills etc.

SCH also can chain 6-9 (if they eat the fairy) insta-heals of their choice. And these aren't skimpy heals. Plus, they can use some CC skills too, Heavy (Miasma), E4E (which they can spread across their entire party if they choose), Virus, Aura Blast (aoe Knockback)/ Heck depending on fairy choice, the even have AoE Esuna. But their real power is fairy...in a 4x4 fight, if everyone is taking one person on the other team, that still means fairy is left unattended....

Meanwhile AST:
Sure, still has Lightspeed, Essential Dignity, and Aspected Benefic...and of course, the occasional Bene II -insta heal proc. (They do get their own version of Assize for PvP as well) Compared to the other 2 roles, they don't have near the
insta-heal potential...esp on a hard-focused target'. And even skills like Synastry, while fairly useful in Seize, really would be situational at best in 4v4. Card buffs, will be nice, but likely won't compensate for the otherwise general lack of reliable CC's.

AST only has: Disable (has cd timer), Heavy (Stella), and Stun (has long cd timer). Their bubble makes them a huge target b/c as soon as they move/cast/use a skill, it will drop.

So basically, in 4v4, I'd say healer skill more than job chosen will largely affect how well, or not well each healer does in 3.2.



(And yes, I think AST can be OP in Seize....but I also never thought it was a huge problem because it wasn't something that was a battle changer...nor could they both survive AND kill.).

[Kyani]

It's actually just a typo, which should have been obvious contextually :P Aspected Benefic with a cast time is effectively just Adloquium - powerful, but with a more defined set of weaknesses. You also seem to be missing (or, dare I say, willfully ignoring) that Diurnal Aspected Benefic is also amazingly powerful in PvP?

You're also sorely misinformed if you think Scholar still gets heavy - that hasn't been true in almost two years.