Are my mitigation numbers off ?

[Reynhart]

Currently PLD is just about 10% under the other tanks. To make up for that you would need a vulnerability up debuff that adds about 2-3% to total party DPS.

Isn't that the same with slashing debuff ? WAR increases damage for NIN and other tanks, included itself. Of course, it doesn't increase the damage for the whole party, but you can have it applied 100% of the time. Adjusting the uptime of the vulnerability debuff is an easy to prevent too much DPS increase...and of course, not stacking it with Trick Attack.

As for the tankiness part, we know that that is a problem because of how 2.0 worked out.

2.0 was a little extreme on that. It wasn't that PLD had better mitigation than WAR, but that WAR had barely enough mitigation for the content.
Personnaly, I think they overdid it a little between :
- not any mitigation and healing boost tied to wrath
and
- constant healing boost to Defiance, mitigation in Inner Beast, mitigation in Storm's Path, mitigation in Vengeance and "ultimate survival" in Holmgang

Again, the extra mitigation is not inherently useless. Tanks survive because healers cure them. More mitigation requires less healing, thus healers could do something else...like DPSing.
The problem, in the current state of the game, is that the tank with the worst mitigation (Whatever it is) already allows healers to do lot of DPS, so, whatever additionnal mitigation PLD offers, it's not significant...whereas its personal lesser DPS is.

the uniqueness of the class should be from mechanics or unique, moderate-power utility skills (like Defiance or Cover).

Which is already a problem, since every tank use the same mechanic to survive. It could have been much more interesting to have one tank that survives through mitigation, one through self-healing, one though leeching, etc...
If they were, they could have the exact same mitigation and the exact same DPS, because each player would pick one depending on the gameplay. Exactly like how most DPS are mostly on par with each other, but with different mechanics.

[eagledorf]

It could have been much more interesting to have one tank that survives through mitigation, one through self-healing, one though leeching, etc

EDITING

I mean in 2.0 WAR had the self-healing and that just didn't work for the way the game works. Mitigation for tank busters is the main mechanic for tanks right now.

I'm talking about Wrath vs. oGCD Cooldowns+Casting. Unfortunately, they've made casting basically un-viable on PLD so it's just oGCD Cooldowns, oGCD Cooldowns with Dark Arts before one of them, and oGCD Cooldowns+Wrath.

I edited my post since PLD is actually 15-25% behind it seems when I checked the latest numbers.

As for mitigation=>healer DPS...it has to be a lot of extra mitigation. Like so much extra mitigation that damage that would kill a DRK or WAR in a few GCD can just be handled by Regen on a PLD. First of all healers don't get accuracy on their gear anymore and their DoTs are like twice the potency of their filler spells. Second of all this content cycle they've intentionally prevented defensive tanking from improving healer DPS by making mechanics like DPS down in A3, Throttle, and massive damage on the raid instead of on the tank so either the healers can DPS with any tank or they can't DPS with any tank.

Once you get that much extra mitigation, it's going to become a distinct advantage while learning content to just have this invincible tank that can help you top the party up instead of one of the other tanks.

[Reynhart]

I mean in 2.0 WAR had the self-healing and that just didn't work for the way the game works.

I'm not sure that self-healing really didn't work.
The problem was that Defiance (by itself) was clearly weaker than Shield Oath. To be on par, you had to keep all your Wrath, but by doing this, you couldn't use Inner Beast...
So, basically, to use your self-healing, you had to withdraw your healing boost...
If WAR had kept the same self-healing abilities (And they're even better now with Equilibrium) AND their current healing boost, they probably wouldn't need that much "mitigation".

As for DRK, I really think it should have been more interesting to give them a "spike" stance, where each time you're hit, you reflect a fragment of the damage (20% and capped by your HP max) and leech for the same amount. Which would have also been their major mean of DPSing, so their personal skills would have their potency reduced, for balance purpose.

[eagledorf]

It really didn't work half as well as mitigation. Like you needed enough gear to actually survive DS in order to get healed or use IB while a PLD could just survive with a cooldown+Stoneskin with substantially less gear and then power through the disease debuff (and apparently SE couldn't foresee that). For casual stuff like Titan, yes you're right that the core problem was basically just that IB depleted your Wrath so you lost the healing buff, which was a stupid design decision, but it was pretty much doable with reasonably similar gear.

For DRK I was hoping that...mitigation would deplete MP somehow for an active style of play. Right now it's just an MP cost to double the effectiveness of one cooldown and then the rest is all for DPS (except in dungeons I guess) and sort of happens automatically.

[Giantbane]

I'm not sure that self-healing really didn't work.
The problem was that Defiance (by itself) was clearly weaker than Shield Oath. To be on par, you had to keep all your Wrath, but by doing this, you couldn't use Inner Beast...
So, basically, to use your self-healing, you had to withdraw your healing boost...
If WAR had kept the same self-healing abilities (And they're even better now with Equilibrium) AND their current healing boost, they probably wouldn't need that much "mitigation".

As for DRK, I really think it should have been more interesting to give them a "spike" stance, where each time you're hit, you reflect a fragment of the damage (20% and capped by your HP max) and leech for the same amount. Which would have also been their major mean of DPSing, so their personal skills would have their potency reduced, for balance purpose.

You would have to do something goofy where DRK's damage done was based off the DRK's stats, but the leech was based off the incoming damage. If you do what you're suggesting, then DRK damage would scale based off the boss's outgoing damage instead of his own gear.

This recreates the situation you had in 2.0 where PLD's flat mitigation scaled off the boss attacks (% of boss damage was reduced) where the WAR's leech effects scaled off of the WAR's gear (Inner Beast leech strength). This made the PLD godly for progression because his was less gear dependent, while the WAR needed to gear up to be anything close to equivalent.

You'd get the same thing with DRK and DPS checks for enrages.

[Reynhart]

You would have to do something goofy where DRK's damage done was based off the DRK's stats, but the leech was based off the incoming damage. If you do what you're suggesting, then DRK damage would scale based off the boss's outgoing damage instead of his own gear.

Wrong, the DRK would have to gear for survival. To reflect the damage, you have to survive it first, so you would cling to any HP upgrade you can.

And again, the problem with WAR was not the scaling, but the bad synergy between Wrath and Inner Beast. It was stupid to sacrifice your healing boost for self-healing, of your self-healing for healing boost. If WAR could have used both at the same time, I'm sure it wouldn't have any problem clearing all content.

[Giantbane]

Wrong, the DRK would have to gear for survival. To reflect the damage, you have to survive it first, so you would cling to any HP upgrade you can.

And again, the problem with WAR was not the scaling, but the bad synergy between Wrath and Inner Beast. It was stupid to sacrifice your healing boost for self-healing, of your self-healing for healing boost. If WAR could have used both at the same time, I'm sure it wouldn't have any problem clearing all content.

You're misunderstanding. At the beginning of progression, everybody has the "low" (relative to that raid tier) ilvl gear because you haven't collected any drops from the new dungeon or collected any of the new tomestones. There's no getting around it. Everybody gets the same general HP (or eHP) levels.

The difference is that at the beginning of a new raid tier, DRK would get a DPS boost immediately due to the increase in boss damage. The PLD/WAR would have to wait for gear to match it.

[Reynhart]

The difference is that at the beginning of a new raid tier, DRK would get a DPS boost immediately due to the increase in boss damage. The PLD/WAR would have to wait for gear to match it.

Yes, and it would be far more risky that the other two tank...
Less defensive, more offensive...I don't see a problem here.

Besides, if you only reflect 20% of the damage, it means you get hit for 5 times this amount.
I don't think tanks really suffer that much damage...ever.