Are my mitigation numbers off ?

[Jpec07]

If PLD stays at a lower DPS, it must increase the overall DPS of the party in some way to compensate.

The most direct route would be to give PLD a way to apply Vulnerability to their opponent. In this way, they would be indirectly contributing to group DPS. If balanced properly, it would make up the gap between PLD MT and DRK and WAR MT DPS. And in order to avoid making PLD suddenly necessary again, make it not 100% uptime (though still a result of our action, so we can control when it applies). Not sure how this would fit in with the job fantasy, but it would definitely make PLD a lot more desirable.

[Anthius]

The most direct route would be to give PLD a way to apply Vulnerability to their opponent. In this way, they would be indirectly contributing to group DPS. If balanced properly, it would make up the gap between PLD MT and DRK and WAR MT DPS. And in order to avoid making PLD suddenly necessary again, make it not 100% uptime (though still a result of our action, so we can control when it applies). Not sure how this would fit in with the job fantasy, but it would definitely make PLD a lot more desirable.

I like this idea, actually just suggested something similar in the other Paladin thread.

Though I think the idea of the Paladin inspiring party members and giving them a damage buff may fit the Paladin theme a bit more than applying a debuff like ninja's trick attack would. Ultimately either would work while leaving the Warrior to be the "damage" tank and letting paladin still contribute to raid damage.

[Reynhart]

Though I think the idea of the Paladin inspiring party members and giving them a damage buff

Some kind of Divine Veil counterpart...OR, maybe Divine Veil effect could change wether you use Shield Oath or Sword Oath...

[Februs]

Some kind of Divine Veil counterpart...OR, maybe Divine Veil effect could change wether you use Shield Oath or Sword Oath...

That would be nice... but Divine Veil has an awfully long CD and very specific utility. That, in itself, is not a killer (Battle Litany also has a long CD, but it's still effective), but Pld's already use it at pre-scripted parts of fights (such as high AoE dmg boss mechs). So, in fights with fluctuating boss defense (like Ravana) Pld's would not be nearly as efficient and be torn between using Divine Veil to boost offense during vulnerability phases or defense during LB's and raid wide dmg. Most Plds would have to opt for offensive uses of Divine Veil because during a lot (as in most) of Raid wide damaging attacks, the boss becomes un-target-able. Meaning the Pld would be saving the party from dmg, but wasting most of the dmg buff. Basically, no matter how a Pld used it, half of it's utility would be wasted. The only way to completely get full efficiency out of Divine Veil like this would be to bring Two Pld's and have them decided in advance who is using Divine Veil for Offense and who is using it for Defense. It's nice to have options and all... but I see this causing more problems than solving them.

I do like the idea of changing effects based on Oath though. It would dramatically improve the enjoyment of the players and the utility of our Oaths if we had actual reasons to stance dance (besides taking full advantage of Fight or Flight). I think SE could potentially fix all of Pld's problems if they just utilized the system they already have in place.

[Giantbane]

Some kind of Divine Veil counterpart...OR, maybe Divine Veil effect could change wether you use Shield Oath or Sword Oath...

I wish flash had blind on it baseline so it was a more meaningful cross class ability.

And I wish the PLD flash talent applied a debuff that increased damage (or at least magic damage) to the target for the next 5-10seconds. Would help lagging PLD aoe DPS without just giving them a straight AoE DPS move.

[Februs]

I wish flash had blind on it baseline so it was a more meaningful cross class ability.

And I wish the PLD flash talent applied a debuff that increased damage (or at least magic damage) to the target for the next 5-10seconds. Would help lagging PLD aoe DPS without just giving them a straight AoE DPS move.

Neither of these would be effective for actual Tanking...

If Flash bound its targets, positioning them accordingly would be extremely difficult. Tank's have to think about that kind of thing. If i'm doing a stretch or drag pull, Flash would stop me dead in my tracks. If I wanted to keep Mob Aoe's away from the party, Flash would stop me from doing that. Given that Flash is the only AoE way a Pld can fast grab group enmity, this would be terrible for them.

The debuff wold be bad too, especially for casters. It sounds like a really good idea at first, but, again, it wouldn't work for a tank. The whole point of Flash is to hold aggro. If it applied a Debuff that allowed AoE casters to do more dmg, Pld's would be risking increasing the enmity of their party more than their own. It would be like applying the effect of overhealing to your casters. Pld's already have a hard enough time holding mob enmity (weakest enmity multiplier and zero aoe dmg), doing this would only make it worse.

[Giantbane]

Verdict: Was taking Shield Swipe off of the GCD a "good" change? In short, no.

If there was a problem, it's that there weren't more adjustments. Specifically to other abilities to deal with PLD shortcomings in terms of TP and threat.

Neither of these would be effective for actual Tanking...

If Flash bound its targets..

The whole point of Flash is to hold aggro....

BLIND

All the casters have access to moves to control enmity. If they use them appropriately, there shouldn't be an issue regardless of who is tanking.

[Februs]

If there was a problem, it's that there weren't more adjustments. Specifically to other abilities to deal with PLD shortcomings in terms of TP and threat.

That doesn't change that it is currently a bad change to Pld's and can actually be considered a nerf in terms of everyday mob tanking... and, quite frankly, I don't think it's likely that they will make the changes that would be required to restore balance.The only 3 that I can even think of off of the top of my head are: 1. Increased Enmity gen off of RoH. 2. Shorter CoS CD and increased enmity gen, or 3. make flash do dmg. 1. Might be viable if Tp consumption wasn't such a nightmare. 2. Seems okay, but they could have done this at any time over the last year and have refused to, and 3... well, 3 is just straight up unlikely due to the fact that it's a cross class skill.

BLIND

Oh jeez. Speaking of blind, apparently I am XD. Sorry about that. I don't have any problem with Blind being cross class effect... But I don't think it would really make a difference. The diminishing returns on Blind would be the same, and it's hardly a noticeable effect when Pld's use it, so, really, take it or leave it. Casters would probably get more use out of it than Plds do (all the power to them), but I don't see it making enough of a difference to warrant anyone changing their cross class skills for it.

All the casters have access to moves to control enmity. If they use them appropriately, there shouldn't be an issue regardless of who is tanking.

That is fine and dandy on paper, but it makes no difference in practice. Casters already have the ability to control their enmity right now, but they can still steal hate easily enough off of Plds. Even as small a difference as 10 item levels can crush a Pld's underwhelming enmity over AoE spamming Dps. If they can steal hate with nerfs to their own enmity, giving them a buff would make it all that much easier.

Now, I'm not saying that it's a bad idea outright. I'd be fine with it, but not with the current state of Pld. Right now, they just don't have enough enmity to warrant making this viable. Pld's already have enough things that force them to over-use Flash to hold hate. Buffing caster dmg without giving Pld's a way to compensate would only make this worse.

[Tam_Hawkins]

The most direct route would be to give PLD a .....PLD a lot more desirable.

For my personal Preference I would rather have Paladin be more tankish as well as better in the dmg reduction support, but that standpoint is a lore standpoint and not a gameplay standpoint....

If something like that would be implemented You are definitly right that it should not have 100% uptime, maybe a 5s vulnerability after shild swipe (so at most 33% uptime but i'm not sure if that is still to strong), the other Problem would be not having it while OT.

[Februs]

If something like that would be implemented You are definitly right that it should not have 100% uptime, maybe a 5s vulnerability after shild swipe (so at most 33% uptime but i'm not sure if that is still to strong), the other Problem would be not having it while OT.

Exactly why Shied swipe is the absolute worst move to modify out of all of Pld's skill set. It has to be proc'd to be used. This means that changing the effect of Shield Swipe would be severely limiting the utility of Pld's. For one, to even use it you basically must be MT. It's for this reason that Shield Swipe was never considered a good way of maintaining TP. OT Pld's are constantly screwed, and that's crap. Any changes made should consider the possibility of Pld OT'ing as well as the possibility that the boss simply doesn't attack physically (A4, anyone?). Not to mention the fact that you would be basing a large part of Pld utility on random chance. I disagree with that on principle. Whatever changes they make should be based on player skill, not luck.