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  1. #61
    Player
    Cabalabob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,671
    Character
    Gunsa Cabalabob
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 90
    This is another illusion of choice issue. Tam Tara used to be longer and had optional bosses and branching paths in beta. But people didn't care about them and just went straight to the end, so they shortened it and made dungeons more linear. And even if it was branching paths to reach the boss, only a handful of people would get to enjoy the mystery, as once it had been explored everyone would know the best route to take and there would just be animosity towards new people who want to complete their map.
    (6)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilthas View Post
    The anonymity of the internet is what leads people to become jerks online.

    You could make a game where all you did was run through fields of flowers holding hands and you'd still get a guy telling you you're doing it wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mcshiggs View Post
    Everyone knows you skip through fields of flowers holding hands, running noobs need to go back to WoW.

  2. #62
    Player
    Khalithar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2,555
    Character
    Khalith Mateo
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Magis View Post
    Then let them find that route and take it if they wish?
    They will and that will become the accepted way of doing things and any one that tries to argue against it will probably be shunned. Which leads me to my next point, I'm sure SE will realize that the same thing will happen and as such, why take the time to do such a thing when players are just going to naturally gravitate towards the path of least resistance per usual? Even if you make the shortest path the most difficult one, I have a very strong suspicion that players would just drop until they can find a group capable of doing that shortest path. I appreciate the sentiment, I enjoy long exploration dungeons myself and seeing all the interesting stuff and hidden nooks and crannies, but I feel that the time of dungeons like that is gone now and it goes in the bin with other obsolete MMO mechanics like exp loss and having to carry around actual ammunition.
    (1)

  3. #63
    Player
    Magis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    1,253
    Character
    Magis Luagis
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Khalithar View Post
    They will and that will become the accepted way of doing things and any one that tries to argue against it will probably be shunned.
    Give people a reason to explore and they will. Yes, if you put a reward down one path and nothing anywhere else, of course people will shun it. That was the great thing about BRD, there were different items depending where you went, and different objectives needed going different paths. At the same time, they weaved in a story and setting that made the place believable and fun to explore. Dungeons in FFXI had different level range mobs in different spots, NMs here and there, and some required different paths to connect to different zones. Though this was more an openworld dungeon which doesn't compare well to instanced ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khalithar View Post
    I appreciate the sentiment, I enjoy long exploration dungeons myself and seeing all the interesting stuff and hidden nooks and crannies, but I feel that the time of dungeons like that is gone now and it goes in the bin with other obsolete MMO mechanics like exp loss and having to carry around actual ammunition.
    Yeah, seems anything that gave MMO's depth was thrown in that bin (can add elemental systems to that as well), and all that is left is a bare-bones husk with a shiny coat of paint.
    (6)
    Last edited by Magis; 11-23-2015 at 12:03 PM.

  4. #64
    Player
    SchalaZeal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    446
    Character
    Schala Zeal
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 80
    I'm actually surprised there haven't been more complaints about the linearity after FFXIII's release (because everyone and their dogs were bashing it for how linear the maps were, and that you could see how linear it was on the minimap).
    Funny how people didn't seem to think FF7 was linear, although it only gave you one path to progress. You just had the option to backtrack (but no real reason to for 90% of the game). Fort Condor was optional and could be ignored, and 2 characters could also be ignored or never gotten. But the entire path westward to rocket city and then eastward to Temple of the Ancients, are linear. By the time you need to find your (only way) to Icicle place, it's the only place you haven't visited, besides possibly Wutai (but I'd do it later, with a flying airship). And people didn't pan it for being linear.

    My guess, the time WoW launched
    When they went from openworld dungeons everyone can compete in to instanced dungeons where everyone has their own private things and where griefing/camping is harder to do.
    (0)
    Summoner first, Scholar second...but mainly crafter.

  5. #65
    Player
    Iskander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    277
    Character
    Iskander Ionius
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 80
    The solution could be quite simple if one would think about it. Here's some food for thought:

    Dungeons could be made non-linear and with multiple rewards. They'd have to pull some ideas from other games (like wow), but it'd be possible.

    Have multiple branching paths that overlap in places, and several bosses scattered throughout the dungeon. Not just the ffxiv standard of 3 bosses per dungeon...but maybe like 6 or 7 bosses in the dungeon. In order to get to a boss, you may have to go down path C which requires you to do something to 2.0 toto-rak and the little balls of light. You gather them, you get access to that boss. Said boss drops a chest that pulls it's rng loot from the gear loot table for that dungeon. More bosses, more loot.

    Of course, that would just make people take the straightforward path to the endboss. Which is why one little dungeon mechanic would need to be added. RNG DOORS!

    Imagine you start the dungeon, and you go forward. You immediately find yourself with 3 paths before you. Except that this instance, the dungeon loaded with paths 1 and 2 closed. You have to go down path 3 which takes you a certain way. Next time you enter the dungeon, doors 2 and 3 are closed. Guess what?! You're going down a new path! You'd technically be able to fight all the bosses in the dungeon if you EXPLORE (OMG), but even if you decide that you want to try and just rush it, your rng doors will make sure that you'll be taking different paths each time.

    i.e. you'll fight 3 bosses before the end boss, and there are 6 bosses not including endboss. One run you'll fight 1, 4, 6. Another you'll fight 2, 3, 5. Another you'll fight 1,2,4. Ta-da! You're dungeon just got interesting. Why? Because there are multiple paths, and which paths are unlocked are randomly determined the instance is loaded.
    (1)

  6. #66
    Player
    Averax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    2,446
    Character
    Ven Black
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 100
    The problem is the players. Nobody wants to do all the extra turns and corners if they don't have to. They want to get in and get out asap.
    (0)

  7. #67
    Player
    Kotemon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    679
    Character
    Tobias Shadowmane
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 80
    & what he said too --^

    Quote Originally Posted by Veerne View Post
    There's no point in making dungeons labyrinthine because people will always just find the shortest and fastest route to the end.
    What he said.. ^

    The fastest route is always a straight line. With people who just want it over with they'll speed run right to the closest or easiest boss> end it> repeat. If that old 1.0 dungeon ended if you fought Antares, that would be all the dungeon you needed.
    Take XI, the only reason you had to explore places like Garliage, Sky, Sea, was either to find places to camp mobs for exp, hunt Nm's or look for quest/mission "?". Otherwise you had to randomly run about in groups hand mapping the place until you find that random mob dropping a key to a random chest in a different section of the area to get a dungeon map KI. All while drawing the shortest, straightest route to the various goals. Once Wiki gets the map and route/directions posted people followed that and avoided further exploration. Until I eventually got those maps I got lost so often in sky and sea. I just didn't want to go there past the main story or go further than the outside, and I still don't.

    A timed dungeon that big from 1.0 would have a long queue line and have little room for mistakes. Imagine if dps was low, died several times to other bosses and you got to the end with 5 min left on a average 13 min fight; and one person wants to watch the 4 min cutscene. Keep it simple and keep it to point for efficiency. Otherwise a large multy path/segmented raid dungeon sounds good but if your held up by one group who is barely making it through, and decides to randomly loose 1/2 their members because the setup sucks. The other two parties on their own sections are now 'dead end" due to a lack of a third group. If anyone noticed, LoA, WoD, Void keeps all path splits in the same section and are not that far apart and can send 1or 2 from each over to fill the gap..
    (1)
    Last edited by Kotemon; 11-23-2015 at 12:30 PM.

  8. #68
    Player
    Morningstar1337's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    3,492
    Character
    Aurora Aura
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Magis View Post
    ...Also let's not forget Black Rock Depths, a WHOLE GIANT CITY as a dungeon. People didn't expect to clear all of it, they chose which path/bosses/areas to kill or clear depending what they wanted out of it; gear, doing a quest, etc.
    That's it! This games needs something like Black Rock Depths, a place where different paths lead to different rewards...
    (1)

  9. #69
    Player
    DPZ2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    2,590
    Character
    Dal S'ta
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 97
    Having played Wow from BC onwards, I think it's a pretty silly idea to go all gung-ho for multi-level, multi-path dungeon instances. Back in the days when maps were NOT supplied, instances like Mauradon were an exercise in frustration -- nobody wanted to go through them because (a) they got lost (b) purple or orange pathway first? (c) it took waaaay to long. Finding a party for that instance (which was a leveling instance) was problematic, although I will give you points if you played through it in 1.x, as there really wasn't much to do if you couldn't find a raiding party back then.

    As far as those suggesting the 'scenic route' ... just try taking the time to read the texts in Gubal Library some time while in a daily DF. See how long you get to admire the scenery. Sheesh.
    (3)

  10. #70
    Player
    Bremic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    43
    Character
    Bremic Rekced
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 60
    For premade group, Diadem-style content? Sure. But I would under no circumstances make a dungeon as long and complex looking as the pics on the front page for simple roulette style dungeons. The thought of slogging through one of those labyrinths with 3 other idiots who can't play their jobs sends chills up my spine.
    (0)

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