FFXIV dungeons are a little bit too linear?

[Kurogaea]

...

Then I guess that brings the question and Egoraptor said it best: Do you prefer the snack-food or the high-classed dessert?

Snackfoods you can eat a thousand times to your hearts content, or would you like dessert that takes time to finish, but it was delicious and you're glad you had it......or you can just be a pig and eat it all

[MilesSaintboroguh]

As long as we got tomestones and the like, dungeons will never get any more complicated than what we have now since people will revolt if something takes too long to complete.

[Morningstar1337]

As long as we got tomestones and the like, dungeons will never get any more complicated than what we have now since people will revolt if something takes too long to complete.

And if Tomestones cease to be, people will claim that the game will be "harder" because they now have to deal with RNG to get their gear for the raid, Morton's Fork...

Of course I would like to see some 8-Man dungeons below Raid level like say an 8 Man version of the 24 man Raids, something that can't be added to a roulette and could provide a midcore craving a well as an opportunity to make non-linear dungeons (but a little more linear than Diadem). They would even make actual HM versions of the dungeons that need 8 people and rename the existing HM dungeons as "<dungeon name> (Phase II)" or something to that effect

[Zojha]

And if Tomestones cease to be, people will claim that the game will be "harder" because they now have to deal with RNG to get their gear for the raid, Morton's Fork...

I wouldn't even say tomestones have much bearing on the matter. You either beat a boss for loot or for a token that you can gather and exchange for loot. The primary difference is that bosses become interchangeable in terms of loot when they drop the same tokens.

The main reason why people would complain about longer dungeons is: They take time and time is precious, especially on the modern gaming market that's dominated by casuals. When you have two hours a day you can dedicate to gaming at most, a dungeon that takes four is not an option. This also leads to the concern with efficiency - if you have infinite time (or money for that matter), you don't care how efficiently you spend it. If you don't, you do care. And the developer caters to that. That's also why the concept of dailies is blooming and why caps are often in place. And why there's an XP boost for being offline in sanctuaries. And a weekly challenge log.

That said: If you want to have a change in system, you have to make it compatible with the demands of people who can't spend hours upon hours on the screen. And also offer an automated solution to the in-group friction non-linearity causes. Otherwise, I'm afraid you stand little chances at success.

[Deusteele]

Then I guess that brings the question and Egoraptor said it best: Do you prefer the snack-food or the high-classed dessert?

Snackfoods you can eat a thousand times to your hearts content, or would you like dessert that takes time to finish, but it was delicious and you're glad you had it......or you can just be a pig and eat it all

Your analogy is interesting, if flawed, since you seem to equate snack-sized with lesser quality. But still since analogy is always suspect, I'll ignore it and the ad-hominem you used, but you should note that it doesn't really help your case.

I looked in the game that you had linked, White Knight Chronicles. It seems like a single or small group game that is in the Dungeon Crawling genre. Having large and complex dungeons are a given. Yet since FF XIV has never claimed to be in that genre or even hinted at being heavily involved in that style of game play. What was the point said comparison?

Carrying on. You still have yet to produce an actually argument to the statement; That since FF XIV is not based solely around dungeoneering. What would be the gain in regards to investing comparatively more resources into dungeon's compared to other content?
It might your and a group of players desire to remake that game in that image, but others have differing yet equally as important views as to what paths the game should take.

[Kurogaea]

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The analogy was flawed, I knew it for a while actually but i figured the point was clear enough so I left it. Anyways to be specific, dungeons are not just to look pretty, but to feel like an actual dungeon experience is what I was basically saying.

White Knight Chronicles 2 was a single player/multiplayer game where you can party up to 8 players in dungeon quests that can be picked on a quest board, though you enter a lobby like room first and choose towns in which they may be populated up to 24 players each so you have time to make a party or see what people are interested in. The game did have grind qualities, some deeper than XIV in some aspects (Rank system "grumble") but there were a great number of ways to change the pace. dungeons were indeed big and some smaller than others (but never straight lines other than boss trial runs). Quests would have you use different areas multiple times but with different tasks, making it different each time. I said some more a while back about this game on page 14 if you want to know more about it.

Or they understate that this game isn't solely about dungeoneering. Content doesn't exist simply to move you into the next dungeon. In FF XIV they are just one piece of the game. An important piece but nevertheless, just a single piece.

Who says dungeons are just a piece of an mmo?To me, dungeons should be the mmo. If there was one defining feature about XIV, what do you think people will say....no, it wouldn't be dungeons, it'd be the music, graphics, scenary, and thats the problem. When you play an MMO, grinds aren't what comes to your mind at first (unless the game immediately makes you or something), its working toward something you seen before playing it. For me, and for many others I'm sure, was the adventure idea, and whats in an adventure that goes on a railroad track that you can ride over and over and over....thats not adventuring, or dungeoneering, its having a perilous stroll through one set path, a "tour with monsters" if you will. When you go through a dungeon, its suppose to be an experience of possibilities, choices, discovery, challenges (not in self-challenging ways like going in without soul stones), wanting to go through it again not because of an item or two, but how you will find that item because you went a different way. If a dungeon is just gonna start for you to just for you to wish it all to end then its not a dungeon your asking for, its just a longer trial run. (not you in particular)

I won't discuss what people will prefer over what makes it easier to grind because to me its pointless argument (Its just too "ugh" for me to even talk about) so we're on equal terms with that. But the argument your looking for I think it was the good and bad of having more complex and larger dungeons (deluxe "favorite" cake) since dungeons are too linear (small bag of "favorite" flavored potato chips), which was my point I tried to get across. Stupid analogies >_<

To your other statement about repetitive gameplay promoting, I call Opo poo (no offense) and if they are doing that then I'm sure this is what the forums are for to make sure they don't do anything ridiculous like that. But repetitive dungeon promotion I can imagine is what they could be doing. As easy and straight forward as the newer dungeons are, its to be expected SE was keeping relic quests in mind instead of giving the players a unique dungeon experience, (AKA we're grinding those....most likely) though I'll keep most of that to myself, my thoughts for better relic quests idea is for another thread. :/ But in all honesty I'm not sure what broader crowd your referring to who actually like dungeon runs that follow a clear path without diversity.

....Darn it look what you did! made me type up a storm XD lol jk

[hellmach]

Even if you were to compare MMORPG dungeons to single player RPG dungeons, you have to keep in mind that in singe player RPGs the dungeons are the meat of the gameplay, whereas in MMORPGs they are just one piece of the bigger platter of content. MMORPGs also tend to focus more on the boss challenges.

There is no "platter of content" in this game! "Raids" are one boss and that's it which may as well just be another trial compared to the the ones in WoW and other MMOs. You get 2 linear, very easy and repetitive dungeons and a primal trial every patch and a Savage mode "raid" ever other patch. At the most at this point you're paying fifteen bucks to hang out with online friends and collect glamour because outside of Savage everything else will be old hat in a week or two tops... that's it.

But what really hurts as someone who was in love with this game is how much potential it has given some of the bosses and it's graphics. This game can be so much more but it isn't and the devs refuse to take it a step further.

[Darklune]

In order to vastly improve dungeons, one complicated solution would be to eliminate instances altogether and have dynamically respawning trash and many more bosses.

This way, if your party wants to go into Toto Rak, for example, you form your party and actually travel to the entrance in South Shroud and step inside. No loading screen. This is the easiest game ever when it comes to getting around the world, so I wouldn't think this is asking much.

Of course this means that other parties might be inside as well. But this is more of a solution than a problem. In order to accommodate such a thing, the dungeons would be forced to be much much larger and more labyrinthine than they currently are.

Finally, for the purposes of how FFXIV uses tokens to buy items, we would simply replace the daily roulette with a quest to go into one of the applicable dungeons and kill 3 bosses. Then, upon turn-in, you get your daily tokens.

[Morningstar1337]

In order to vastly improve dungeons, one complicated solution would be to eliminate instances altogether and have dynamically respawning trash and many more bosses.

This way, if your party wants to go into Toto Rak, for example, you form your party and actually travel to the entrance in South Shroud and step inside. No loading screen. This is the easiest game ever when it comes to getting around the world, so I wouldn't think this is asking much.

Of course this means that other parties might be inside as well. But this is more of a solution than a problem. In order to accommodate such a thing, the dungeons would be forced to be much much larger and more labyrinthine than they currently are.

Finally, for the purposes of how FFXIV uses tokens to buy items, we would simply replace the daily roulette with a quest to go into one of the applicable dungeons and kill 3 bosses. Then, upon turn-in, you get your daily tokens.

INB4 comparisons to 1.0 dungeons

[Shurrikhan]

In order to vastly improve dungeons, one complicated solution would be to eliminate instances altogether and have dynamically respawning trash and many more bosses.

Just two small details. Instances don't necessarily mean party-sized (even a zone is a [channel/server-sized] instance), and changing which set of mobs and players is shown to a client (who and what the client interacts with) doesn't typically have a loading screen, just a couple seconds of fading out and back into the new channel. What it can have, however, without being correctly restricted, is exploits and a generally poor or crowded/clunky play experience. I'd like the aesthetic of open-world (ish) dungeons and seeing other parties across a given canyon or at certain hubs within a given dungeon, but a zerg-dungeon is not my idea of fun.