FFXIV dungeons are a little bit too linear?

[melisande]

I agree! Some complexity or a maze like style would be quite interesting.

[Vasala]

The big problem is non-linear dungeons do not work well in a random match making system. When you throw 4 random people together and have choices then you will have issues where player A wants to clear the whole place but player B only wants to kill the end boss and get out. I saw this a lot in WoW with the few dungeons that had optional bosses. If that optional boss did not drop something the tank wanted good luck getting them to go that way for your potential drop, etc.

[Kurogaea]

The big problem is non-linear dungeons do not work well in a random match making system. When you throw 4 random people together and have choices then you will have issues where player A wants to clear the whole place but player B only wants to kill the end boss and get out. I saw this a lot in WoW with the few dungeons that had optional bosses. If that optional boss did not drop something the tank wanted good luck getting them to go that way for your potential drop, etc.

Ever considered the fact that this isn't WoW and actually thought of something innovative like having the boss pop in a few random sections of the dungeon that players would have to explore different sections to find it? Or like Sastasha with its little note which will hint at a mechanism that could branch you into a different path or perhaps an npc giving you a task in the dungeon leading to an area with mechanisms or items that would weaken the boss giving you more options in completing the dungeon?

Actually how about not everyones an a@#hole that says "quick run now or I'm leaving, huh durr" because if they did I'd reply, "peace the f&%# out." and wait for someone else to join. Less linear dungeons would be a big step to more immersive content, and this "WoW yada yada, everythings a speedrun, players are jerks" crap needs to stop because NO DUH, we know people are jerks sometimes, but assuming everyone is like that in an MMO in which you need people for just about everything is not good for anyone and is just flat-out stupid. There's plenty of people willing to help, and those who want speedruns of dungeons that are NOT linear can obviously go into pf for quick grinds.

[Dante_V]

I like the idea. I think they should take the diadem model and combine it with dungeons to a degree where you can have optional or even random side bosses that drop random treasure that could possibly high level. Some could be harder and some could be easier and drop rates would be affected accordingly. They would be optional and promote exploration for those who wished to do so.

[Squrilruler]

Man, all these BRD lovers must have some rose-tinted glasses. When I played, it was a hated dungeon, and most people only went because they had to. While it wasn't my favorite dungeon, as long as I had a good group, it wasn't too bad. If I had a terrible group the dungeon was a nightmare.

As for making dungeons have more options, I want to bring up Haukke Manor. This dungeon has several easy optional areas (hallway before last boss, room before first boss, several "jail" cells before the second boss). I hardly ever have groups that want to clear these areas. They all have chests. They have these incentives to clear it. Yet no one does. What would change this?

Lastly, there was a post that said that most of these longer dungeons in single player games have save points. I think this is a huge point. Yes, there are RPGs that have dungeons that are 6+ hours to clear. But you also don't have to do it all at once. You can get on, clear a bit, save, and come back. Not possible in a group online setting.

Maybe we can get these kinds of dungeons when they release retainer/GC party groups? Then it would just be you. That is probably the only time I see something like this being used.

[Lyshell]

As I was reading this I was thinking that would be cool and the replies are just as true. People would complain it takes too long and just take the fastest route and would lead to a lot of rage quits from people and then complain this game is too hard.

My idea would be to make a maze of a dungeon but no trash mobs make them all mini bosses that open paths. Really why do we need to kill trash mobs? I'd rather fight boss after boss. (Maybe we can a few mobs here and there but just not a lot) So killing a boss would open a path but the path would always be random. That way people can't force to always take the same path and the quickest path. Also make these types of dungeons PF only. I know it sucks but for these kind of things it's just annoying to have a mess of random people, complaining it's too long or not what they wanted. You want a nice hard hardcore dungeon, fine PF and let's do it.

[Eidolon]

The reward has to be worthy of what we put in to get there. If the reward doesn't match the effort, people will take the most streamlined path possible.


For example, Haukke Manor:
No one does the side rooms because the items in the chests aren't worth it. The bonus EXP is mostly on the boss, so wasting time on the mobs on the side literally nets you a trash chest and some extra mobs for exp, wherein you could jsut be doing more que's instead.

Quarn, for example:
Doing two side rooms will save you having to do one pull that's annoying at the end, and gives access to a chest with loot. Most people don't skip the side rooms in Qarn, but that might be due to the Heads that I dont' know if they would follow you if you DIDN'T kill them.

So, how do we apply this to an end-game meta?
Easy. Add gear that's worthwhile to the side rooms. Make the fights more difficult to match the risk:reward. For example, say there's a side path you can take in the current dungouns. You clear it, and get to the boss. Beating the boss should award:
1) A piece of i200 Green gear
2) Additional esoterics to match the time needed to clear the hallway. If a room by an average party takes 30 minutes and yields 40 esos, make this room grant 10-20 esos for 10 minutes worth of work.

This is a way to add in midcore content that enables people to be rewarded for additional effort. It would also prevent ragequits because if your party can't handle it - just back out and continue down the normal path. Or you can choose to play it safe and just clear for your daily roulette bonus.

There are far more dynamic ways of making this content than there is right now - but SE is following FFXIII's model - Final Corridors with weak mechanics on bosses.

[TouchandFeel]

My two cents as someone who has professionally designed and built dungeons, raids and other instanced content for a triple A MMO.

If you create multiple branching paths, multiple bosses that will be randomly chosen, etc. All of that is extra content and development time that must be put in and that quickly chews through development resources. From a development standpoint it is better to put those resources into stuff you know will get played, instead of stuff that may just get skipped or not bothered with.
Why have two half-assed bosses, only one of which is guaranteed to be fought, when you could have used those resources to make one much better boss?
Create a dungeon with branching paths, multiple bosses that are selected randomly and all that jazz and you just used up the development resources for creating two dungeons and so instead of two separate linear dungeons, you have a single dungeon that branches and has some slight variations in it.
While you could try to reuse or repurpose assets, they still need to be properly integrated together and things like boss scripts still need to be created, so it may save some development time but often not as much as people like to assume and many times its actually less time and effort to do something from scratch than trying to rejigger something just to reuse it.

While some people may say they enjoy labyrinthine dungeons and the like, the reality is that most players don't. Players in general really don't like to backtrack, get turned around and lost fairly easily and dislike unnecessary travel time. They pretty much want to go from point A to B and get their reward quickly while having a good time along the way. Also, single player story driven RPG dungeons and MMORPG dungeons are completely different beasts. It's like comparing a Counterstrike map to a Bioshock level, sure they are both shooters but are vastly different in most other regards.

So, long story short, wanting more variation within a dungeon (i.e. nonlinearity, random bosses, etc.) is still more and more does not magically manifest and resources must be used up to make it happen, which results in more there but less elsewhere. Add to that the general player preference for things being more straightforward and less things that seem extraneous, and more linear but refined dungeon/raid designs end up being the best decision from a development point of view.
Overall two linear dungeons actually provides more variety in gameplay than one dungeon with branching for approximately the same development resources.

I'd be all for some form of nonlinear or somewhat randomized content, but that would have to be its own thing that has a separate resource pool allocated to it.

[WinterLuna]

There's no point in making dungeons labyrinthine because people will always just find the shortest and fastest route to the end. Even if you were to compare MMORPG dungeons to single player RPG dungeons, you have to keep in mind that in singe player RPGs the dungeons are the meat of the gameplay, whereas in MMORPGs they are just one piece of the bigger platter of content. MMORPGs also tend to focus more on the boss challenges, not exploration, since exploration is kind of useless in a game where you are meant to do the same place multiple times.

I mean, you're right, but at least we'd have the option. We don't have any choice right now but to follow he straight line to the end.

[Squrilruler]

I mean, you're right, but at least we'd have the option. We don't have any choice right now but to follow he straight line to the end.

But why? If people are going to do it once and be done, for 30 extra minutes in this one area, what is the point? Would the time not be better spent on something else that will be utilized more?