Why Avoid Parry?

[Ralvenom]

This is a straw man argument. Literally zero people expect a tank to sit there and do no damage. It is in fact impossible to do so and keep hate. The arguments being posited are whether or not a tank's dps secondaries actually contribute -significant- increases to raid dps over a tank favoring parry, assuming they both have the same str and weapon damage.

Doing just enough damage to keep hate is failure. You're a DRK. You know this.

[Jpec07]

Thank you for this, most str based tanks play better overall than those who stack vit spam their 123 aggro rotation because they have to.
Being full str means you have to increase your survivability to full levels by using cooldowns.
Being full str also means you more than likely care about your dps which means you will put in effort into your combos to pump out damage and not play lazily, all this will amount to better aggro management and survivability because we all know a dead tank cant dps, why would we risk dying and wiping the party?

Huge fallacy with this logic when compared to the prevailing argument in this thread (it's kind of ironic, actually).

This thread suggests that people in full Fending gear don't really have that much of an advantage over people in Pentamelds or full Slaying gear. If Parry is utter crap (and I don't think anyone will contend that Vit isn't really that helpful for tanks), then how can you possibly argue that the Slaying tank will tend to play better than the Fending tank? If the prevailing argument in this thread holds true, then the two will be taking just about the same amount of damage, and the only difference will be that the Fending tank has to work harder for enmity. So by this logic, the natural conclusion of Slaying > Fending is that Fending gear actually makes enmity gameplay harder for the tank, while they'd have to cycle their cooldowns just as effectively as the tank in Slaying gear. So if they are able to hold threat and survive in Fending gear, and if the mitigation gains by Fending gear are marginal at best, then it stands to reason that the tank in Fending gear is better at the mechanics of their job than the tank in full Slaying, because they have to be.

[Februs]

As it's already been mentioned, Parry has one of the worst scale rates out of every stat in the game. Getting a notable increase with it is like pulling teeth. It was actually mapped by someone back during the Zeta grinds (when tanks were debating which stats to put on their original Novus weapons) and it was proven not to be worth it. I was gonna post the numbers here, but I can't seem t find the original post, and I'm too lazy to search for it. The only tank who can create a noticeable increase in their parry rate are Dark Knights using Dark Dance, but that's because the CD scales based off of a Percentage, not a stat increase. The stat itself is terrible, which means that the Parry defense is, basically, pure RNG. If it happens, it's great, but it's definitely not something to count on or build as the baseline of your defense.

Instead, it's much better to look for DET as a secondary stat. The reason here is not just for Dps output (killing quickly is great, but we have Dps for that), though that plays a part of it. The way in which Det scales and effects your Str stat, as well as the increase in recovery magic, provides far more mitigation to a Tank that parry. For one, it's not random. The results are immediately noticeable. stack any tank (including pld) with Str accessories instead of Vit accessories and you'll notice a difference in output. Increased output = increased enmity, increased hp recovery from moves such as Bloodbath or Inner Beast, and increased healing magic potency (such as clemency, in the case of Pld's). These are all things you can bank on by planning your CD's appropriately, unlike Parry which is almost completely random (Drk's aside).

TL;DR The bottom line is that a Tank's defense isn't truly based on secondary stat allocation so much as it is based on knowing your defensive cooldowns, which CD's work together and have synergy (ie: Pld's popping Fight or Flight with Bloodbath is a MUST. Popping Sword Oath as well grants even better returns) , and how you can best exploit them. When you know these things, you plan your secondary stats accordingly so that you can greater maximize the effects of your CD's. Parry NEVER acts as an optimization for any Tanks CD's (including DRK). DET and Crit, however, can greatly increase the effects of a tank's CD's when they are used correctly.

[Ralvenom]

then how can you possibly argue that the Slaying tank will tend to play better than the Fending tank?

It's simple. The full slaying tank knows his choices are 1) don't use CDs as often and die OR 2) use CDs often, live, & do damage. When you have less room for error (because you don't have a larger HP pool to fall back on), you're forced to play tighter.

Also, most full Fending tanks tend to require more healing.

Btw, it's worth noting that both myself & dank1 used the word "tends", as in "to be disposed or inclined in action, operation, or effect to do something". So, before you (or anyone else) decides to jump in & go, "But I'm a full Fending tank who uses all his CDs, so I basically take no damage"...remember exceptions to the rules don't make the rules invalid.

Also, think about that concept a bit: a full fending tank who uses all of his/her CDs. As much as you (and others) may dislike it, if you used your CDs all the time AND were in full (or mostly) Slaying gear, how much more damage would you be contributing to the party. I feel it's VERY selfish in this game to NOT contribute as much damage as possible to the party, which means gearing in a manner that ups your damage is key, especially when we have enough CDs to make it such that Fending gear is NOT required in the current meta. I honestly hope this changes slightly in 3.2, because it would be cool to have a few fights where I have to a beefy tank. But, this is still 3.1, so suck it up & contribute as much as possible to the party already.

Increased output = increased enmity, increased hp recovery from moves such as Bloodbath

It's worth noting that increased HP recovery from Bloodbath = increased emnity (~10%+ emnity), so you might as well use this as often as it's up on pulls.

Unfortunately, PLD only has Circle of Scorn to act as an AoE damage dealing emnity generator. (Flash doesn't deal damage, so...using Bloodbath & Flash together is generally not great.) So, it's still kind of weak for PLD, but it's better than nothing. WAR & DRK have enough AoE emnity generation to get significant gains from Bloodbath.

[Kosmos992k]

Going pure defensive and just holding threat really isn't that hard to do. I can do that watching a movie at the same time. I would have no reason to play a tank class because that just sounds extremely lazy and boring.

Then don't play that way, I'm not telling you that you should.

I had to group with several tanks like that already.

As have I, it's extremely irritating, especially when I normally play PLD, and do not play that way.

If a Warrior or Dark Knight plays like that, they usually are less survivable then ones who focus on DPS because they have overall less sustain, and most don't even actively use their defensive moves often.

I play Paladin, all my comments start from that perspective. Of course WAR would be less survivable if they did not do as much DPS sa they can because of their skill set with damage related self heals (among other things). No argument there.

However, trying to deal as much damage as possible while tanking is both fun, active, rewarding, challenging.

Damage above and beyond tanking well and doing your best in the tank role to keep aggro and protect the party is gravy, everyone likes gravy. So far you're not saying anything I have an argument with.

Most full defensive tanks I meet, pretty much do their threat combo and stack high vit and never use defensive moves.

Then they are quite simply bad tanks. defensive moves are as important as keeping hate, otherwise you put undue pressure on the healer, which helps no one.

Some don't even avoid AOEs.

Now that's just plain stupidity on their part. I mean there are times when you have to choose which AoE you will have to eat because either the healers are fully occupied or dodging one put's you in line for the other, so you pop a cool down and choose the lesser of two evils.

Its almost like they are watching Netflix more then playing the game.

I used to have someone in my FC who played tank and healer in lazy mode all the time, I'm painfully aware of the watching Netflix thing.

I mean, sure that probably sounds fun to you but its really not that hard.

I think you're not understanding where I am coming from here. I agree that where possible, and if the player is comfortably able to do it without affecting their core role, players should try to put out additional damage. I agree that tanks (including PLD) are supposed to use their cool downs, buffs, oGCD skills and stay engaged enough to dodge AoEs without spinning the boss like a top and pissing off everyone with positional requirements. I agree that tanks can contribute more damage besides their basic damage done by their hate combo. There's no arguing with any of that that, and I'm not. I am saying that any damage above and beyond what is generates by all of the above is gravy, it's an optional extra, and always appreciated when it happens.

However, when we have Paladins being told to use Sword Oath not Shield Oath when MT, and to stack STR, and focus their rotations on maximizing dps, which in one thread or another I've seen over and over in this forum, more so in the last few months; that's when I'll start arguing. Changing tanks in general into DPS focused clones of each other is not an attractive prospect to me. PLD in particular is simply not that kind of role, and nothing you or anyone else can say will alter that. So if the game changes and follows the current meta and basically makes the things that set Paladin apart irrelevant, I won't continue playing PLD because it's not the role or job that I signed up for. It would be like taking Warrior and nerfing it's DPS and self heal capabilities and then making encounters that depend heavily on physical defense and mitigation.

What bothers me more than anything though is that throughout the numerous topics, players who lean towards the high DPS end of things tend to be dismissive or insulting when it comes to players who are not DPS focused. There are 3 tanks in the game 2 of them (WAR in particular) make a virtue out of higher DPS. Is that not enough? Do we have to railroad Paladin down that line too?

[dank1]

Huge fallacy with this logic when compared to the prevailing argument in this thr

This thread suggests that people in full Fending gear don't really have that much of an advantage over people in Pentamelds or full Slaying gear. If Parry is utter crap (and I don't think anyone will contend that Vit isn't really that helpful for tanks), then how can you possibly argue that the Slaying tank will tend to play better than the Fending tank? If the prevailing argument in this thread holds true, then the two will be taking just about the same amount of damage, and the only difference will be that the Fending tank has to work harder for enmity. So by this logic, the natural conclusion of Slaying > Fending is that Fending gear actually makes enmity gameplay harder for the tank, while they'd have to cycle their cooldowns just as effectively as the tank in Slaying gear. So if they are able to hold threat and survive in Fending gear, and if the mitigation gains by Fending gear are marginal at best, then it stands to reason that the tank in Fending gear is better at the mechanics of their job than the tank in full Slaying, because they have to be.

By playing better I meant more effectively contributing to the party. A tank who provides a higher damage output than the other while maintaining the same survivability by default is the better tank just by helping the boss die that much faster and in some cases being the only reason the boss even died in a decent amount of time(i.e in DF when the dps is doing only around 400dps)

I also mentioned "plays better" due to the fact that a lot of the times full vit players don't use any cooldowns due to thinking they don't need to because of their higher hp pools, while a str tank being aware that they don't have as much of a cushion is more likely to pop cooldowns which in turn is actually better most times, and provides more survivability, than the full vit guy who doesnt think he needs to pop any cooldowns.
Obviously these scenarios arent always the case, there is some cases where full str tanks dont ever pop CDs and cases where even full vit tanks still use CDs effectively, but if we were talking about equally skilled players then the one who deals more damage is better by default because why wouldn't they be?

[Ralvenom]

Is that not enough? Do we have to railroad Paladin down that line too?

That's kind of the point, isn't it? We do, because PLD can't perform as well in raids. If the other tanks can defend just as well (remember, block only affects physical attacks) in the current meta, but also do more dps; why bring a PLD? The solution is 2-fold:

1. make the next meta such that there's 1-2 fights where it's not only required for tanks to "turtle" BUT is also fun;
   This would force tanks to bring a Fending set for those fights.
2. bring MT PLD dps up slightly, as the changes in 3.1 were a good step but not enough.
   Every tank should feel like they can perform at the same level as every other tank, which is still not the current case.

[Kacho_Nacho]

*snip* What bothers me more than anything though is that throughout the numerous topics, players who lean towards the high DPS end of things tend to be dismissive or insulting when it comes to players who are not DPS focused. There are 3 tanks in the game 2 of them (WAR in particular) make a virtue out of higher DPS. Is that not enough? Do we have to railroad Paladin down that line too?

Thank you!

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

But in general, don't tanks want to do whatever they can to take less damage?

I hope you see now what you've done by asking this question. This post was made less than 5 hours ago and it already has 67 replies! YOU'VE AWOKEN THE MOB!

[Februs]

Unfortunately, PLD only has Circle of Scorn to act as an AoE damage dealing emnity generator. (Flash doesn't deal damage, so...using Bloodbath & Flash together is generally not great.) So, it's still kind of weak for PLD, but it's better than nothing. WAR & DRK have enough AoE emnity generation to get significant gains from Bloodbath.

Yet another reason why the changes from 3.1 to shield swipe are awful for Pld's mob enmity. They already had piss poor mob aggro, so, by all means, lets take away the crutch we gave them in 3.0 that was actually working for holding aggro on a mob without spamming flash.

I should point out though, that Blood bath does not provide healing with magic attacks. Unleash is the same as Flash. It provides no healing when used with bloodbath because the dmg dealt in non-aspected magic dmg. That being said, their primary enmity combo hits harder than RoH, so they get a better return off of that than Pld do, and their Siphon Blade combo already self heals, so they can compound the effect using that combo.