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  1. #11
    Player
    Tint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    In the right-hand attic
    Posts
    4,325
    Character
    Karuru Karu
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    Fisher Lv 100
    yes please ^^/

    means the whm will get a new hopefully meaningfull trait to replace the battle-raise-trait wich does nothing else than preventing the paladin from battle-raise >.>
    (5)

  2. #12
    Player
    LandricFrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    277
    Character
    Landric Frey
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfAbyss View Post

    Speaking of slots, why is it that lvl 60 we don't have a 6th slot open?

    Do you have plans to change the whole skill tree later on, and then skip the cross-classes?
    This cross-class ability system is the bare-bones leftovers of a once powerful Job customization system from 1.0. With Rogue having no skills to share, and going into 3.0 with no new classes (just jobs) I'm thinking they want to axe the system completely, and that wouldn't bother me one bit. Why do something half-assed? Go big or go home.
    (1)

  3. #13
    Player
    Malicewolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    475
    Character
    Fohl Hakuko
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashkendor View Post
    That wouldn't balance out jack. All it would do give PLD a little more raid utility that's niche at best and borderline useless at worst. With no Swiftcast available, you have to animation lock yourself for over 8 seconds to cast Raise. If both healers are down, 8 seconds is a freakin eternity for the boss to chew up the MT, spit him out, and start hunting for DPS.
    Every tank should have a last ditch, immune to death saving CD. This scenario kinda screams "use me" for that. Even if the MT dies, the shortest version of this is holmgang, which still lasts for 6 seconds for a WAR. Raise is 8. If your MT can't give you 2 extra seconds and use Holmgang to stall for the other 6, then you have another problem. Living dead is 10 seconds long, just like HG. This idea is meant to be last ditch effort, or simply to alleviate a healer from using their mana on it if the run is still going smoothly and 1 DPS falls.
    (1)
    Don't worry. I'll spam cure the crap out of you with my Paladin.

    #GetSelliBack2016
    #IsSelliBackYet?2017
    #IfSelliIsntBackIQuit2018
    #IfSelliIsntBackIQuitForReal2019
    #TheYearTrumpWontGetRelected2020

  4. #14
    Player
    Ashkendor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    4,659
    Character
    Ashkendor Zahirr
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Malicewolf View Post
    Every tank should have a last ditch, immune to death saving CD. This scenario kinda screams "use me" for that. Even if the MT dies, the shortest version of this is holmgang, which still lasts for 6 seconds for a WAR. Raise is 8. If your MT can't give you 2 extra seconds and use Holmgang to stall for the other 6, then you have another problem. Living dead is 10 seconds long, just like HG. This idea is meant to be last ditch effort, or simply to alleviate a healer from using their mana on it if the run is still going smoothly and 1 DPS falls.
    I'm talking from the standpoint of endgame content here, where your last ditch cooldowns are often included in your cooldown rotation by necessity and thus aren't available to use like that. If both healers are down and you manage to get one raised, great. One healer back on their feet with no mana probably isn't going to save the run because at that point your MT is very likely to be mostly dead (if not already completely dead), and if you're very unlucky the raid's also taken aoe damage. Not to mention, your OT animation locking themselves and losing 4 GCD's worth of DPS to save one healer a single Raise cast's worth of mana is a bad idea.

    The whole reason Raise is a great raid utility for SMN is specifically because they are a DoT class and they have Swiftcast.

    PLD being able to Raise in combat would be of niche use at the very best. More half-assed raid utility isn't balance.
    (3)
    Last edited by Ashkendor; 11-20-2015 at 06:54 AM.

  5. #15
    Player Kaiser-Ace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,966
    Character
    Kai Magnus
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by LandricFrey View Post
    This cross-class ability system is the bare-bones leftovers of a once powerful Job customization system from 1.0. With Rogue having no skills to share, and going into 3.0 with no new classes (just jobs) I'm thinking they want to axe the system completely, and that wouldn't bother me one bit. Why do something half-assed? Go big or go home.
    What would they possibly replace it with? As a Dragoon the Pugilist and Marauder Skills I use in my cross slots are invaluable. Almost every combo, strategy, and stat balance would have to be completely overhauled if cross skills (A big selling point for the armoury system back in the day) were to be scraped. I say the extra slot may simply be due to lack of cross skills in general. Rought, Mechanist, Dark Knight, and Astrologen were implemented with out offering a single cross skill, then for that one extra slot all normal classes would go up to 12 cross skills, as it sit you now have to think which of the skills you're willing to give up. Like how I made the choice to stick with Fracture for my DoT combo instead of swapping for Mantra when I unlocked it. If I had a sixth slot I'd have no need to make that decision because Mantra is the only other cross skill beside the 5 I have equiped that's worth anything to DRG. And All Mantra would really do is be a Healer's version of Battle Littiney.
    (0)

  6. #16
    Player
    Catwho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    2,766
    Character
    Katarh Mest
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashkendor View Post
    The whole reason Raise is a great raid utility for SMN is specifically because they are a DoT class and they have Swiftcast.
    Let me say that as a SMN, unless you've EXPLICITLY asked me to save Swiftcast for Raise, it's not going to be up on demand.

    Just tossing that out there. I use up Swiftcast for Shadow Flare unless I've been specifically asked to keep it on reserve in a raid.
    (9)

  7. #17
    Player
    Fevelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,353
    Character
    Fiona Greentear
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandril View Post
    It would be cool, and I'd love it, but it might cause some serious balance issues.
    Everytime I read about "balance issues", "required for hardcore content" or "balanced raid enviroment" I feel this game dying a little. So you'd rather play a dumb, generic class with DPS issues than a supportive tank who excels at OT with lots of utility just because he would be better at certain encounters?

    IMO, Paladins should play more like a support. More than just raising. The ideas about a new heal stance on the other thread are gorgeous, but again, people complain because "balance".
    (2)
    Last edited by Fevelle; 11-20-2015 at 07:19 AM.

  8. #18
    Player Kosmos992k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    4,349
    Character
    Kosmos Meishou
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfAbyss View Post
    Heya all ^^

    Is it asking for too much that we could spend a Cross-Class slot skill and put Raise as a PLD, to be able to use it in combat since we unlocked it with Conjurer?

    That would really make me feel like I'm the sort of Crusader that are there with prayers, God, Shield and.. to better protect and serve my fellow comrades?
    **snip**

    Thank you for your time.
    You already have Raise cross classed from CNJ, you may or may not have included it in the skills you could put in available slots. However, at the moment there is no point because we can't use it in battle, even though it's a cross class skill. In fact there really isn't any point to cross classing the skill without being able to use it in battle since it takes almost as much time to switch the skill into your hotbar and wait for the cooldown before using it as it does to simply switch to CNJ or WHM and do it that way.

    There's discussion of this on the Tank forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashkendor View Post
    PLD being able to Raise in combat would be of niche use at the very best. More half-assed raid utility isn't balance.
    I understand the points about end-game/raid content. But in general run of the mill stuff and in terms of QoL, it matters because we have been given it as a cross class skill, but it's quite literally unusable in any meaningful way because it can't be used in battle. I mean, if you're going to give Raise as a cross class, why not make it battle usable? Summoners have the skill from Arcanist that allows them to raise in battle.

    Actually if CNJ didn't need a trait to allow raising in battle, there would be no issue. I've no idea why CNJ needs to have that trait in the first place, it seems a needless restriction at the best.
    (3)
    Last edited by Kosmos992k; 11-20-2015 at 07:22 AM.

  9. #19
    Player
    Jamillion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Uldah
    Posts
    612
    Character
    Calypso Celeste
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Catwho View Post
    Let me say that as a SMN, unless you've EXPLICITLY asked me to save Swiftcast for Raise, it's not going to be up on demand.

    Just tossing that out there. I use up Swiftcast for Shadow Flare unless I've been specifically asked to keep it on reserve in a raid.
    Hell, even on my Scholar I use 95% of my swiftcasts on shadowflare lol.
    (2)

  10. #20
    Player
    Rawrz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    1,704
    Character
    Sir Rawrz
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 90
    The difference between Paladin having a raise in battle and a summoner having raise is that a Paladin can get hit by a truck and live; a summoner cannot (No defensive CDs even). Most classes share a bum skill. (RUIN) White mages get 3 good cross class and share very good cross class. Stoneskin (maybe protect over mercy sometimes) + MRD cross is all PLD needs. If Paladin does need more utility they shouldn't be looking at cross class to improve themselves.
    (0)

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