PLD Raise while in combat please!

[Ashkendor]

Let me say that as a SMN, unless you've EXPLICITLY asked me to save Swiftcast for Raise, it's not going to be up on demand.

Just tossing that out there. I use up Swiftcast for Shadow Flare unless I've been specifically asked to keep it on reserve in a raid.

Oh, definitely. There's always the chance it will be up, but I get that it's a slim chance at best.

For a PLD there's zero chance at all. We don't even have the option.

Think beyond 8-man raids and end-game. In light party content if the healer dies, it's generally gonna be a wipe. If PLD could raise in battle, they more than likely have enough aggro lead on the DPS to raise the healer without losing aggro. It would be very useful there.

One thing I am finding in this discussion in particular is that many players wear blinkers that prevent them seeing anything but end-game scenarios.

Anything short of endgame, the PLD should be able to keep himself standing in many cases anyway. Clemency is a hella strong heal.

Healer's dead? Pop some cd's, self heal, let the DPS burn the boss. You can even heal the DPS if you need to.

[Kosmos992k]

Anything short of endgame, the PLD should be able to keep himself standing with Bloodbath and Clemency anyway.

Healer's dead? Pop some cd's, self heal, let the DPS burn the boss.

Bloodbath, yes, but Clemency isn't always available depending on the content. I'm just asking people to look at this from the point of view of a) players who don't run end-game or raid, and b) players leveling Paladin from scratch. Logically speaking, Raise as a cross skill, is little better than our appendix, except it doesn't go septic and threaten your life.

BTW going back to what I said about expanding and not contracting the selection of cross class skills, here is what a Gladiator can do in that regard (scroll down to cross class skills);
http://www.ffxivinfo.com/class/gladiator.php*
Here is Paladin;
http://www.ffxivinfo.com/job/paladin.php*
* - Note that the description for Raise has a foot note that reads cannot be used in battle until level 28. Unless there has been a stealth change in an emergency patch, that footnote is only relevant to CNJ.

Imagine the possibilities if jobs had 6 slots and the same range of skills to choose from as their base class does now.

It seems as though SE like to homogenize everything, and amazingly the players support it either explicitly or tacitly, even defining specific skill rotations and BiS armor sets, so there is apparently no room for individual expression or style.

That's just really, really sad.

[Ashkendor]

Bloodbath, yes, but Clemency isn't always available depending on the content. I'm just asking people to look at this from the point of view of a) players who don't run end-game or raid, and b) players leveling Paladin from scratch. Logically speaking, Raise as a cross skill, is little better than our appendix, except it doesn't go septic and threaten your life.

White Mage can take Ruin, Physick, and Surecast. Bard can take Haymaker. Monk can take freakin Skull Sunder.

I think pretty much every class has at least one bunk cross-class skill.

[Malzian]

Think beyond 8-man raids and end-game. In light party content if the healer dies, it's generally gonna be a wipe. If PLD could raise in battle, they more than likely have enough aggro lead on the DPS to raise the healer without losing aggro. It would be very useful there.

One thing I am finding in this discussion in particular is that many players wear blinkers that prevent them seeing anything but end-game scenarios.

Okay, first off its 'blinders', not 'blinkers'. Despite being covered in metal, my PLD is not a car...

Second off, it's even worse in 4-man content since if I'm spending that 8 seconds casting that is 8 seconds I'm not dodging AoEs or using CDs if I didn't pop them before I started casting, nor am I trying to keep myself alive, nevermind the enmity issues. This may be useful in 24-man dungeons, but I still see it being niche and not really all that utilitarian... Even if you do pull it off, your healer has animation lock from the raise and no MP to heal with, either. Point is, if you don't have anything that can deliver some decent heals until the healer can get back on their feet and regenerate some MP, raising them doesn't do you any good at all.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Second off, it's even worse in 4-man content since if I'm spending that 8 seconds casting that is 8 seconds I'm not dodging AoEs or using CDs if I didn't pop them before I started casting, nor am I trying to keep myself alive, nevermind the enmity issues. This may be useful in 24-man dungeons, but I still see it being niche and not really all that utilitarian... Even if you do pull it off, your healer has animation lock from the raise and no MP to heal with, either. Point is, if you don't have anything that can deliver some decent heals until the healer can get back on their feet and regenerate some MP, raising them doesn't do you any good at all.

Could be really OP in PvP content but if you start altering PvE because it effects PvP balance then you've quite explicitly screwed the power curve already and PvP is unsalvageable. (Like the Gold Saucer)

[Ashkendor]

Could be really OP in PvP content but if you start altering PvE because it effects PvP balance then you've quite explicitly screwed the power curve already and PvP is unsalvageable. (Like the Gold Saucer)

Sounds like an invitation to have the crap stunned out of you in PvP. 8 seconds is a long time to be animation locked.

Then again, most people tend to ignore PLD in PvP and focus on healers anyway.

[Kosmos992k]

Okay, first off its 'blinders', not 'blinkers'.

Not in the UK....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkers_%28horse_tack%29
Not a great start to your post, but hey, we all make mistakes.

To answer your second 'point', I've been in many situations in light party where I ould have usefully raised a healer, but obviously could not because of the restriction. I'm not sure how you come up with it being worse since 4-man content is somewhat more forgiving in any case. Either way, I disagree with your analysis and believe that you need to remove your end-game oriented *blinkers*.

White Mage can take Ruin, Physick, and Surecast. Bard can take Haymaker. Monk can take freakin Skull Sunder.

I think pretty much every class has at least one bunk cross-class skill.

We have FOUR of them, all of them from CNJ and all of them to some degree or another useless or unusable. We're the only non caster to cross with CNJ, I already know the arguments about it being a hold over or legacy thing...yada...yada... The point is it's there, it's half of our cross class skills, and they should be useful in some way.

It's not 'pretty much the same' at all.

To be more clear I mean a summoner cannot survive a raid wide aoe wipe mechanic like a pally can. Hallow + Raise + Cover + LB3 Healer. Mechanic beaten by the only thing that could ever beat it. Broken. As I said earlier, just because it's available in your cross class, doesn't make it part/effective for your role. Skull Sunder. Savage Blade. Ruin.

I'll just refer you to the place where I said I wasn't talking about end-game or raid content, and that I wish people would take the raider/end-game blinkers off and realize there's more to the game than that. BTW, your 'broken' statement is kind of pointless since we could just as well HG + Cover(healer) + LB3 Healer to rez everyone else. Either way without a PLD, it ain't happening in that specific, and very narrow situation. Of course the healer could just pop their LB3 anyway, and there are plenty of situations where PLD could pop theirs for a similarly miraculous effect. You can always come up with situations where a specific course of action saves of fails a raid wipe. That is not an argument that something is overpowered.

Answering why we can't use Phoenix Down in battle Fevelle said....

Raid enviroment balance.

LOL, isn't that the reason for everything being OP? Either that or it will unbalance PVP...

Even if it didn't. If you manage to Stoneskin first that should fix the issue.

Just how many GCDs are you burning now to achieve this, plus the insane cast time of Raise, and you still think it's OP? Come on....

[Malzian]

Not in the UK....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkers_%28horse_tack%29
Not a great start to your post, but hey, we all make mistakes.

Well, I'm in the US and not the UK, and here we call them blinders, but that is semantical difference and completely beside the point.

To answer your second 'point', I've been in many situations in light party where I ould have usefully raised a healer, but obviously could not because of the restriction. I'm not sure how you come up with it being worse since 4-man content is somewhat more forgiving in any case. Either way, I disagree with your analysis and believe that you need to remove your end-game oriented *blinkers*.

In my experience as a tank in all my time playing, the number of times that this would have been useful like this has been so small that the issue of effectively being able to use it makes it a pointless skill to have. Also, I don't have those 'blinkers/blinders/things that cover a horse's eyes' for end game raiding since I don't end game raid. I haven't even set a foot into Alex Savage yet and I'm not really planning on it in the near future, so you're wrong I that assumption there. But hey, we all make mistakes...

[LandricFrey]

If you remove cross class skills, you rail everyone into exactly the same skills and abilities, and with the vertical gearing, each player in a job would basically be a clone of every other player in the same job. How boring would that be? On the contrary, expand the cross skills. Try this, take your soul stone off, requip as a Gladiator and look at the selection of juicy skills you have to play with. Rather than removing cross class skills, though ought to expand them to allow us more freedom with our skill build.

I never said get rid of all the cross-class skills, I said get rid of the system if this is as far as their taking it. Of course they'd have to change things like give the necessary cross-class skills automatically as a level up reward, or add in a few new abilities that would replace the "must haves." But this current system is not customizing. You get a choice of good and terrible abilities. That's not really a choice then is it? So right now as it is; every job IS a clone of every other player.

[Rawrz]

As I said earlier in another post. The raise cross class skill is really unusable in it's current state, it literally detracts from the PLD skills if you put it on your hotbar, becoming an entirely wasted slot. Since PLD is based on the combination of GLD and CNJ, is it really unreasonable to expect we would at least be able to use our CNJ skills?

To be more clear I mean a summoner cannot survive a raid wide aoe wipe mechanic like a pally can. Hallow + Raise + Cover + LB3 Healer. Mechanic beaten by the only thing that could ever beat it. Broken. As I said earlier, just because it's available in your cross class, doesn't make it part/effective for your role. Skull Sunder. Savage Blade. Ruin.