PLD Raise while in combat please!

[Catwho]

The whole reason Raise is a great raid utility for SMN is specifically because they are a DoT class and they have Swiftcast.

Let me say that as a SMN, unless you've EXPLICITLY asked me to save Swiftcast for Raise, it's not going to be up on demand.

Just tossing that out there. I use up Swiftcast for Shadow Flare unless I've been specifically asked to keep it on reserve in a raid.

[KingOfAbyss]

PLD being able to Raise in combat would be of niche use at the very best. More half-assed raid utility isn't balance.

Well, since it won't balance it out, SE can surely give it to us!

RPers and those niche occasion would be nice to see ^^

[Ashkendor]

Yup, STRATEGY. This is exactly what this game lacks.

It always kinda weirds me out when I see this kind of sentiment from people that say they don't do endgame. o.O

I mean, if you don't do the hardest content in the game, of course it's going to seem light on strategy.

We have FOUR of them, all of them from CNJ and all of them to some degree or another useless or unusable. We're the only non caster to cross with CNJ, I already know the arguments about it being a hold over or legacy thing...yada...yada... The point is it's there, it's half of our cross class skills, and they should be useful in some way.

If you honestly think Stoneskin is useless, you're doing PLD wrong. Oops sorry, there goes my endgame point of view again.

Also fully agree with this. You can Stoneskin yourself before almost every major Tankbuster in the game without interuption. There are also a lot of lengthy transition phases in Raids / Trials that let's you Stoneskin multiple people with weakness before a big hit. I re-protect static members after Raise as it saves the healers MP. Honestly there's no reason for a Paladin to NOT be doing this. It's practically a part of the job.

I remember spam-casting Stoneskin on Earthshaker targets in T13. Glorious. xD

I also remember how much fun it was once I figured out that if I Stoneskinned myself I could just Leeroy straight into Bahamut for DB.

Well, since it won't balance it out, SE can surely give it to us!

RPers and those niche occasion would be nice to see ^^

They can put it in or not put it in and it won't matter to me either way. I don't care so much about that. I was making an argument against someone that was saying it would help balance Paladin with the other two tanks. Frankly, it wouldn't affect a darn thing as far as evening Paladin up in raid effectiveness with Warrior and Dark Knight. It'd be just another niche use skill that you almost never use.

[Kosmos992k]

If you honestly think Stoneskin is useless, you're doing PLD wrong. Oops sorry, there goes my endgame point of view again.

Actually I use it regularly, I don't consider it to be completely useless, however if you've spent any time on the tank forum (which I am sure you have) then you will have seen many posters declaring it a waste of time and MP to cast StoneSkin. I do cast StoneSkin, on myself and on others while tanking. I should probably go back and change my comment to say thee, not four, along with an asterisk pointing out that many apparently consider StoneSkin a pointless waste of time and MP, though I personally do not.

Alternately I can leave this note here.




Since Cure is so weak that the high level boss auto attacks overwhelm it, it's a patent waste of MP, Protect is cast by Healers and lasts 30 minutes so outside solo use it's not really worth using. Raise is, as I pointed out, unusable in any meaningful way, it even being quicker to switch to WHM out of combat to perform the raise, rather than messing around with cross skill settings and waiting for the cool down. That leaves Stoneskin as the only skill that is useful in the 4 we're talking about, and some strongly question that too.

[Kosmos992k]

Heya all ^^

Is it asking for too much that we could spend a Cross-Class slot skill and put Raise as a PLD, to be able to use it in combat since we unlocked it with Conjurer?

That would really make me feel like I'm the sort of Crusader that are there with prayers, God, Shield and.. to better protect and serve my fellow comrades?
**snip**

Thank you for your time.

You already have Raise cross classed from CNJ, you may or may not have included it in the skills you could put in available slots. However, at the moment there is no point because we can't use it in battle, even though it's a cross class skill. In fact there really isn't any point to cross classing the skill without being able to use it in battle since it takes almost as much time to switch the skill into your hotbar and wait for the cooldown before using it as it does to simply switch to CNJ or WHM and do it that way.

There's discussion of this on the Tank forum.

PLD being able to Raise in combat would be of niche use at the very best. More half-assed raid utility isn't balance.

I understand the points about end-game/raid content. But in general run of the mill stuff and in terms of QoL, it matters because we have been given it as a cross class skill, but it's quite literally unusable in any meaningful way because it can't be used in battle. I mean, if you're going to give Raise as a cross class, why not make it battle usable? Summoners have the skill from Arcanist that allows them to raise in battle.

Actually if CNJ didn't need a trait to allow raising in battle, there would be no issue. I've no idea why CNJ needs to have that trait in the first place, it seems a needless restriction at the best.

[KingOfAbyss]

You already have Raise cross classed from CNJ, you may or may not have included it in the skills you could put in available slots. However, at the moment there is no point because we can't use it in battle, even though it's a cross class skill. In fact there really isn't any point to cross classing the skill without being able to use it in battle <- That is the point of my thread, sigh. And check me on Lodestone, I've got all my Cross-Class Skills, so I know them since it takes almost as much time to switch the skill into your hotbar and wait for the cooldown before using it as it does to simply switch to CNJ or WHM and do it that way. <- err what? That has nothing to do with my suggestion.

There's discussion of this on the Tank forum. (at least someone who has taste! ^^)

I understand the points about end-game/raid content. But in general run of the mill stuff and in terms of QoL, it matters because we have been given it as a cross class skill, but it's quite literally unusable in any meaningful way because it can't be used in battle. <- EXACTLY. I mean, if you're going to give Raise as a cross class, why not make it battle usable? Summoners have the skill from Arcanist that allows them to raise in battle. <- YUP.

Actually if CNJ didn't need a trait to allow raising in battle, there would be no issue. I've no idea why CNJ needs to have that trait in the first place, it seems a needless restriction at the best.

Well, yeah, seems they are looking to revamp this skill system, we might be in for a shock! Get ready for 4.0, the reborn of a reborn game!

*actually I wouldn't mind testing a different skill systems, as long as they keep up with this nice game ^^

[Jamillion]

Let me say that as a SMN, unless you've EXPLICITLY asked me to save Swiftcast for Raise, it's not going to be up on demand.

Just tossing that out there. I use up Swiftcast for Shadow Flare unless I've been specifically asked to keep it on reserve in a raid.

Hell, even on my Scholar I use 95% of my swiftcasts on shadowflare lol.

[Rawrz]

The difference between Paladin having a raise in battle and a summoner having raise is that a Paladin can get hit by a truck and live; a summoner cannot (No defensive CDs even). Most classes share a bum skill. (RUIN) White mages get 3 good cross class and share very good cross class. Stoneskin (maybe protect over mercy sometimes) + MRD cross is all PLD needs. If Paladin does need more utility they shouldn't be looking at cross class to improve themselves.

[Kosmos992k]

As a PLD main, I only have one concern with this and that is the cast time/animation lock for it. If I'm in a fight where I only need to OT, it'd be somewhat alright provided I didn't have to worry about the MT dying when both healers go down.

Think beyond 8-man raids and end-game. In light party content if the healer dies, it's generally gonna be a wipe. If PLD could raise in battle, they more than likely have enough aggro lead on the DPS to raise the healer without losing aggro. It would be very useful there.

One thing I am finding in this discussion in particular is that many players wear blinkers that prevent them seeing anything but end-game scenarios.

The difference between Paladin having a raise in battle and a summoner having raise is that a Paladin can get hit by a truck and live; a summoner cannot.

That's not really very relevant to the discussion, the Summoner is hardly going to steal hate while raising someone, so short of a random AoE they're gonna be fine, especially is they swiftcast it.

As I said earlier in another post. The raise cross class skill is really unusable in it's current state, it literally detracts from the PLD skills if you put it on your hotbar, becoming an entirely wasted slot. Since PLD is based on the combination of GLD and CNJ, is it really unreasonable to expect we would at least be able to use our CNJ skills?

This cross-class ability system is the bare-bones leftovers of a once powerful Job customization system from 1.0. With Rogue having no skills to share, and going into 3.0 with no new classes (just jobs) I'm thinking they want to axe the system completely, and that wouldn't bother me one bit. Why do something half-assed? Go big or go home.

Oh good grief I hope not. It's one of the few ways in which we get any ability to shape our character and influence anything about how they play. If you remove cross class skills, you rail everyone into exactly the same skills and abilities, and with the vertical gearing, each player in a job would basically be a clone of every other player in the same job. How boring would that be? On the contrary, expand the cross skills. Try this, take your soul stone off, requip as a Gladiator and look at the selection of juicy skills you have to play with. Rather than removing cross class skills, though ought to expand them to allow us more freedom with our skill build.

This would be extremely powerful utility. So powerful, that I fear it might cause PLD to be a required party member for any sort of hardcore content. Having a PLD able to resurrect just about anyone while off-tanking is a scary thought. Even the MP cost wouldn't really matter to them, since they can regain MP at such an insane rate.

It would be cool, and I'd love it, but it might cause some serious balance issues.

No it wouldn't. It's on a long cast time and uses a lot of MP, how would it be more powerful or unbalancing than SMN being able to Resurrect? Not to mention that while the PLD is casting it, they are taking damage and not putting out any DPS, so in an end-game scenario with the dps-checks there, I can't believe any raid leader would ask for a PLD over another tank for their ability to battle raise.

[Fevelle]

One thing I am finding in this discussion in particular is that many players wear blinkers that prevent them seeing anything but end-game scenarios.

Developers seem to do the same, sadly.