PLD Raise while in combat please!

[Rawrz]

The difference between Paladin having a raise in battle and a summoner having raise is that a Paladin can get hit by a truck and live; a summoner cannot (No defensive CDs even). Most classes share a bum skill. (RUIN) White mages get 3 good cross class and share very good cross class. Stoneskin (maybe protect over mercy sometimes) + MRD cross is all PLD needs. If Paladin does need more utility they shouldn't be looking at cross class to improve themselves.

[Kosmos992k]

As a PLD main, I only have one concern with this and that is the cast time/animation lock for it. If I'm in a fight where I only need to OT, it'd be somewhat alright provided I didn't have to worry about the MT dying when both healers go down.

Think beyond 8-man raids and end-game. In light party content if the healer dies, it's generally gonna be a wipe. If PLD could raise in battle, they more than likely have enough aggro lead on the DPS to raise the healer without losing aggro. It would be very useful there.

One thing I am finding in this discussion in particular is that many players wear blinkers that prevent them seeing anything but end-game scenarios.

The difference between Paladin having a raise in battle and a summoner having raise is that a Paladin can get hit by a truck and live; a summoner cannot.

That's not really very relevant to the discussion, the Summoner is hardly going to steal hate while raising someone, so short of a random AoE they're gonna be fine, especially is they swiftcast it.

As I said earlier in another post. The raise cross class skill is really unusable in it's current state, it literally detracts from the PLD skills if you put it on your hotbar, becoming an entirely wasted slot. Since PLD is based on the combination of GLD and CNJ, is it really unreasonable to expect we would at least be able to use our CNJ skills?

This cross-class ability system is the bare-bones leftovers of a once powerful Job customization system from 1.0. With Rogue having no skills to share, and going into 3.0 with no new classes (just jobs) I'm thinking they want to axe the system completely, and that wouldn't bother me one bit. Why do something half-assed? Go big or go home.

Oh good grief I hope not. It's one of the few ways in which we get any ability to shape our character and influence anything about how they play. If you remove cross class skills, you rail everyone into exactly the same skills and abilities, and with the vertical gearing, each player in a job would basically be a clone of every other player in the same job. How boring would that be? On the contrary, expand the cross skills. Try this, take your soul stone off, requip as a Gladiator and look at the selection of juicy skills you have to play with. Rather than removing cross class skills, though ought to expand them to allow us more freedom with our skill build.

This would be extremely powerful utility. So powerful, that I fear it might cause PLD to be a required party member for any sort of hardcore content. Having a PLD able to resurrect just about anyone while off-tanking is a scary thought. Even the MP cost wouldn't really matter to them, since they can regain MP at such an insane rate.

It would be cool, and I'd love it, but it might cause some serious balance issues.

No it wouldn't. It's on a long cast time and uses a lot of MP, how would it be more powerful or unbalancing than SMN being able to Resurrect? Not to mention that while the PLD is casting it, they are taking damage and not putting out any DPS, so in an end-game scenario with the dps-checks there, I can't believe any raid leader would ask for a PLD over another tank for their ability to battle raise.

[Fevelle]

One thing I am finding in this discussion in particular is that many players wear blinkers that prevent them seeing anything but end-game scenarios.

Developers seem to do the same, sadly.

[Ashkendor]

Let me say that as a SMN, unless you've EXPLICITLY asked me to save Swiftcast for Raise, it's not going to be up on demand.

Just tossing that out there. I use up Swiftcast for Shadow Flare unless I've been specifically asked to keep it on reserve in a raid.

Oh, definitely. There's always the chance it will be up, but I get that it's a slim chance at best.

For a PLD there's zero chance at all. We don't even have the option.

Think beyond 8-man raids and end-game. In light party content if the healer dies, it's generally gonna be a wipe. If PLD could raise in battle, they more than likely have enough aggro lead on the DPS to raise the healer without losing aggro. It would be very useful there.

One thing I am finding in this discussion in particular is that many players wear blinkers that prevent them seeing anything but end-game scenarios.

Anything short of endgame, the PLD should be able to keep himself standing in many cases anyway. Clemency is a hella strong heal.

Healer's dead? Pop some cd's, self heal, let the DPS burn the boss. You can even heal the DPS if you need to.

[Kosmos992k]

Anything short of endgame, the PLD should be able to keep himself standing with Bloodbath and Clemency anyway.

Healer's dead? Pop some cd's, self heal, let the DPS burn the boss.

Bloodbath, yes, but Clemency isn't always available depending on the content. I'm just asking people to look at this from the point of view of a) players who don't run end-game or raid, and b) players leveling Paladin from scratch. Logically speaking, Raise as a cross skill, is little better than our appendix, except it doesn't go septic and threaten your life.

BTW going back to what I said about expanding and not contracting the selection of cross class skills, here is what a Gladiator can do in that regard (scroll down to cross class skills);
http://www.ffxivinfo.com/class/gladiator.php*
Here is Paladin;
http://www.ffxivinfo.com/job/paladin.php*
* - Note that the description for Raise has a foot note that reads cannot be used in battle until level 28. Unless there has been a stealth change in an emergency patch, that footnote is only relevant to CNJ.

Imagine the possibilities if jobs had 6 slots and the same range of skills to choose from as their base class does now.

It seems as though SE like to homogenize everything, and amazingly the players support it either explicitly or tacitly, even defining specific skill rotations and BiS armor sets, so there is apparently no room for individual expression or style.

That's just really, really sad.

[Ashkendor]

Bloodbath, yes, but Clemency isn't always available depending on the content. I'm just asking people to look at this from the point of view of a) players who don't run end-game or raid, and b) players leveling Paladin from scratch. Logically speaking, Raise as a cross skill, is little better than our appendix, except it doesn't go septic and threaten your life.

White Mage can take Ruin, Physick, and Surecast. Bard can take Haymaker. Monk can take freakin Skull Sunder.

I think pretty much every class has at least one bunk cross-class skill.

[Malzian]

Think beyond 8-man raids and end-game. In light party content if the healer dies, it's generally gonna be a wipe. If PLD could raise in battle, they more than likely have enough aggro lead on the DPS to raise the healer without losing aggro. It would be very useful there.

One thing I am finding in this discussion in particular is that many players wear blinkers that prevent them seeing anything but end-game scenarios.

Okay, first off its 'blinders', not 'blinkers'. Despite being covered in metal, my PLD is not a car...

Second off, it's even worse in 4-man content since if I'm spending that 8 seconds casting that is 8 seconds I'm not dodging AoEs or using CDs if I didn't pop them before I started casting, nor am I trying to keep myself alive, nevermind the enmity issues. This may be useful in 24-man dungeons, but I still see it being niche and not really all that utilitarian... Even if you do pull it off, your healer has animation lock from the raise and no MP to heal with, either. Point is, if you don't have anything that can deliver some decent heals until the healer can get back on their feet and regenerate some MP, raising them doesn't do you any good at all.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Second off, it's even worse in 4-man content since if I'm spending that 8 seconds casting that is 8 seconds I'm not dodging AoEs or using CDs if I didn't pop them before I started casting, nor am I trying to keep myself alive, nevermind the enmity issues. This may be useful in 24-man dungeons, but I still see it being niche and not really all that utilitarian... Even if you do pull it off, your healer has animation lock from the raise and no MP to heal with, either. Point is, if you don't have anything that can deliver some decent heals until the healer can get back on their feet and regenerate some MP, raising them doesn't do you any good at all.

Could be really OP in PvP content but if you start altering PvE because it effects PvP balance then you've quite explicitly screwed the power curve already and PvP is unsalvageable. (Like the Gold Saucer)

[Ashkendor]

Could be really OP in PvP content but if you start altering PvE because it effects PvP balance then you've quite explicitly screwed the power curve already and PvP is unsalvageable. (Like the Gold Saucer)

Sounds like an invitation to have the crap stunned out of you in PvP. 8 seconds is a long time to be animation locked.

Then again, most people tend to ignore PLD in PvP and focus on healers anyway.

[Kosmos992k]

Okay, first off its 'blinders', not 'blinkers'.

Not in the UK....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkers_%28horse_tack%29
Not a great start to your post, but hey, we all make mistakes.

To answer your second 'point', I've been in many situations in light party where I ould have usefully raised a healer, but obviously could not because of the restriction. I'm not sure how you come up with it being worse since 4-man content is somewhat more forgiving in any case. Either way, I disagree with your analysis and believe that you need to remove your end-game oriented *blinkers*.

White Mage can take Ruin, Physick, and Surecast. Bard can take Haymaker. Monk can take freakin Skull Sunder.

I think pretty much every class has at least one bunk cross-class skill.

We have FOUR of them, all of them from CNJ and all of them to some degree or another useless or unusable. We're the only non caster to cross with CNJ, I already know the arguments about it being a hold over or legacy thing...yada...yada... The point is it's there, it's half of our cross class skills, and they should be useful in some way.

It's not 'pretty much the same' at all.

To be more clear I mean a summoner cannot survive a raid wide aoe wipe mechanic like a pally can. Hallow + Raise + Cover + LB3 Healer. Mechanic beaten by the only thing that could ever beat it. Broken. As I said earlier, just because it's available in your cross class, doesn't make it part/effective for your role. Skull Sunder. Savage Blade. Ruin.

I'll just refer you to the place where I said I wasn't talking about end-game or raid content, and that I wish people would take the raider/end-game blinkers off and realize there's more to the game than that. BTW, your 'broken' statement is kind of pointless since we could just as well HG + Cover(healer) + LB3 Healer to rez everyone else. Either way without a PLD, it ain't happening in that specific, and very narrow situation. Of course the healer could just pop their LB3 anyway, and there are plenty of situations where PLD could pop theirs for a similarly miraculous effect. You can always come up with situations where a specific course of action saves of fails a raid wipe. That is not an argument that something is overpowered.

Answering why we can't use Phoenix Down in battle Fevelle said....

Raid enviroment balance.

LOL, isn't that the reason for everything being OP? Either that or it will unbalance PVP...

Even if it didn't. If you manage to Stoneskin first that should fix the issue.

Just how many GCDs are you burning now to achieve this, plus the insane cast time of Raise, and you still think it's OP? Come on....