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  1. #11
    Player
    raela's Avatar
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    Nov 2014
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    715
    Character
    Raela Sarinelle
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by SerCypher View Post
    The whole idea of -hard- content seems to have gone out the wayside in this expansion. There is only casual and extreme, and there is nothing to bridge the gap and provide a sense of progression for the average player. That's why you have anger about new players trying Savage, or Ex primals. These people really aren't skilled enough for those fights, but they want something more challenging then facerolling dungeons, and there is nowhere to learn now.
    I'm guessing you've never landed into Alex NM on DF with them? That and void ark provide challenge for that sort of player.
    (0)

  2. #12
    Player
    SerCypher's Avatar
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    Oct 2013
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    18
    Character
    Evangeline Primrose
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 60
    I view casual content as any content that a group of strangers with no experience can be Duty findered into and complete with a good chance of success.

    It's content that is forgettable, and that doesn't require any serious effort or growth to complete. This is now the only type of content in the game besides the very overtuned savage content.
    (3)

  3. #13
    Player
    SerCypher's Avatar
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    Oct 2013
    Posts
    18
    Character
    Evangeline Primrose
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by raela View Post
    I'm guessing you've never landed into Alex NM on DF with them? That and void ark provide challenge for that sort of player.
    I have never seen either of those fights run out the timer with wipes. Which is fine! I'm not saying they should be harder.

    I am saying they don't provide a challenge, and there should be fights that do besides the overtuned savage fights.
    (1)

  4. #14
    Player
    TouchandFeel's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    1,834
    Character
    Vespereaux Vaillantes
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 90
    I believe the problem is not that they are making the "wrong content" but that no matter what is made, the player-base or aspects of it will have wanted something different that is tailored specifically to what they think they want, which is often not even what they actually want.

    Basically Group A of the players want Content Type A, Group C wants Content Type C.
    If SE makes Content A, Group C is pissed.
    SE makes Content C, Group A is pissed.
    SE, hoping to appease both groups makes Content B because it is somewhere between Content A and Content C and both Groups A and C are pissed.
    The decision that SE seems to be trying to go for is to make some A, some B and some C. Unfortunately, that leaves them in the situation we have now where the player-base feels there is not enough content tailored to them.

    No matter what is done or made some portion of the player-base will be pissed because they selfishly desire (its part of human nature) more of what they want and other people and their desires are not as important and should not warrant consideration.
    (14)

  5. #15
    Player
    SchalaZeal's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    446
    Character
    Schala Zeal
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 80
    I am saying they don't provide a challenge, and there should be fights that do besides the overtuned savage fights.
    You can't have both of those at once in the same kind of content:

    1) Something you can DF and expect to win.

    2) Something that provides a challenge harder than Alex NM or Void Ark.

    At best you could have 3) Content hard enough to require a newbie/casual static (ie 2 hours a week tops), which can have 1-2 members PFed. Which is how Coil was. Of course those statics probably didn't clear T5/9/13 before it had echo, but they probably downed the next best thing (ie T4 long before 2.2).

    Edited to add: Btw I think Thordan EX is above the level of "3" (it's actually tuned harder than Void Ark and Alex NM, but easier than Savage A3S by far), at least without echo. After 3.2 with echo, once it hits 15-20%, people should be able to down it, with 6-7 man statics (PF the rest, and I expect that even with 8 assigned members, some won't show for reasons) that don't practice that often and are not necessarily raid regulars. They'll also have access to a part of 3.2 gear (non-upgraded tomes at first, possibly crafted if they got deep pockets). I know the issue isn't necessarily dps, but having more HP, and better heals, also helps. Better dps can carry dead bodies.
    (0)
    Last edited by SchalaZeal; 11-19-2015 at 04:46 AM.
    Summoner first, Scholar second...but mainly crafter.

  6. #16
    Player
    Welsper59's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,427
    Character
    Eros Maxima
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by SerCypher View Post
    I view casual content as any content that a group of strangers with no experience can be Duty findered into and complete with a good chance of success.

    It's content that is forgettable, and that doesn't require any serious effort or growth to complete. This is now the only type of content in the game besides the very overtuned savage content.
    You can't really blame them for the overtuned part. We literally (as a community) spoke out and requested that level of content when it was revealed during ARR that they make it and then scale down. As though the existence of this and them scaling down was them not expecting us to live up to the challenge. Thus, we got Savage mode. We then spoke out about how there was no point to it since the loot did not equate the degree of effort you needed for it. They listened. We got both of these things in Alex Savage. For most people, they can't/won't live up to the challenge no matter how hard they try while it's relevant. The handful that do, however, have realized it's not the degree of fun they thought that level of "difficult" content would be. According to Yoshi-P, they understand this after finally giving us what we asked for. So, I guess that we're back to square one with latter Savage mode content. Guess they had it right all along and shouldn't have listened to us.
    (3)
    Last edited by Welsper59; 11-19-2015 at 04:41 AM.

  7. #17
    Player
    raela's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
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    715
    Character
    Raela Sarinelle
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by SerCypher View Post
    I have never seen either of those fights run out the timer with wipes. Which is fine! I'm not saying they should be harder.

    I am saying they don't provide a challenge, and there should be fights that do besides the overtuned savage fights.
    I've seen them vote abandon before that due to enrage wipes. I've even quit out of A1 because it was 100% clear we were not going to clear and the vote abandon failed.

    Ex primals are a step below savage, and alex is below those but above normal.. I don't get what difficultly level you're imagining. :/ i did bismark ex on PF and the main challenge there seemed to be getting dps that knew their rotations.. Not so much the mechanics of the fight.
    (0)

  8. #18
    Player
    SerCypher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    18
    Character
    Evangeline Primrose
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by SchalaZeal View Post
    You can't have both of those at once in the same kind of content:

    1) Something you can DF and expect to win.

    2) Something that provides a challenge harder than Alex NM or Void Ark.

    At best you could have 3) Content hard enough to require a newbie/casual static (ie 2 hours a week tops), which can have 1-2 members PFed. Which is how Coil was. Of course those statics probably didn't clear T5/9/13 before it had echo, but they probably downed the next best thing (ie T4 long before 2.2).
    Agreed.

    Which is why I would prefer the system in 2.0, where you were prepared for coil by having to get your relic and do hardmode primals. It all felt like a road you could progress on, not a brick wall.
    (2)

  9. #19
    Player
    Seryl199's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
    Posts
    549
    Character
    Delferia Seule
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by SerCypher View Post
    Agreed.

    Which is why I would prefer the system in 2.0, where you were prepared for coil by having to get your relic and do hardmode primals. It all felt like a road you could progress on, not a brick wall.
    Titan HM was among my favorite of mid-core battles. Tackling him in Darklight gear, he stood as a real challenge between many players and their relic. Clearing the heart phase was a rush. Learning his final phase as a healer was pulse pounding, as the Tumults began stacking up and missed dodges began to take their toll, until finally, your group holds it together and he goes down. Titan was far from the hardest battle in 2.0, but he laid the smack down on those who came unprepared (myself included!). He was a great starting point for leaping into harder content, and had an immensely compelling reward in the shape of the relic weapon. I would love some battles that really nail that level of tuning again.
    (9)

  10. #20
    Player
    SchalaZeal's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    446
    Character
    Schala Zeal
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 80
    I kept editing my post SerCypher, if you want to reply to the new edited version.

    As for Titan HM. I failed it for one and one reason only: HAVING to anticipate (memorize, not react) every single move. Because it was impossible to stop casting and move out of a landslide, I had to stop casting when I knew it was GOING to come, then move the moment it appeared, and then Bio Titan so it updated my position outside the aoe (since that was THE issue, server updating not often enough for your position).

    Once they fixed that, Titan became more trivial for me and my group.
    (1)
    Summoner first, Scholar second...but mainly crafter.

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