PLD is just boring

[Jandor]

It would be a different mechanic as Dark knight can turn on Darkside while in grit and the warrior has a 10s cooldown in his switches. The paladin is supposed to be the sword AND shield of the people not the sword or shield. if we could swap stances on the fly it would give us more resource management options instead of just being a complete TP drainer and it would make fights much more then just FB->SB->RA spamming in between damage mitigation and the other OGCD skills. it would also be much easier to implement instead of having to tweak the whole tool kit and watch for what would need to be balanced afterwards in every skill.

I'm opposed to oath swaps not interrupting combos. Like Fast - Savage - Shield - Rage - Sword - Fast - Savage - Royal etc.
or with some of the edit changes proposed in my last post, something like Sword - Fast - Savage - (ooh swipe proc) - Shield - Shield swipe - Spirits - Sword - Royal - Fast - Riot - etc.

Honestly though, that might be a terrible idea when all mathed out. I don't know. I guess I'm just pretty cautious about major PLD changes .

DRK incurs just as much of a penalty when trying to stance dance. Applying Grit takes one GCD & enough MP for one Dark Arts use. You run an extremely high risk of losing DPS on DRK if you pull Grit back within 30 seconds, and that's before considering potential healer DPS lost. I'd be willing to bet 99% of DRK have no idea how many of which attacks need to get through to make up for it, most still think Blood Weapon grants an extra attack.

I admit, DRK knowledge isn't my strong suit. I'm still leveling it, fun so far though.

This wouldn't solve the current Spirits Within issue. It would even make it worse because while tanking you pretty much have to be topped off by healers most of the time, so waiting for you to be at a very dangerous health state just to use SW at max potency would be very reckless and a DPS loss anyway since you're delaying the CD, hoping that your healers will not top you off too fast. They should honestly just get rid of this weird shit. SW should do 300 potency everytime.

Depends where max potency kicks in. I don't know exactly where the damage differences kick in as it is, I tend to just use it when I can unless I'm really low on health.

[Bravely_Default]

mathed out it is really not worth even dropping shield oath for damage and you will never want to use sword oath as well, you are basically losing 2 weapon skills to switch to sword and back which adds up fast if you want to even think about doing it multiple times. in addition to this you would still have the MP cost on top of the lost damage as well.

[Bravely_Default]

Dont get me wrong sword oath is much stronger then people think and paladin is not bad at DPS as an OT

[Disc]

The problem with this is that the paladin is as good as a PHYSICAL defence tank as the dark knight is a MAGIC defense tank. the dark knight has greater DPS options while MT to boot.

This still needs to be tested. The changes to Shield Swipe should offer an average of around 700+ potency per minute or more depending on breaks in the fight. This is before accounting for less reliance on Halone & Bulwark itself being useful as an extra 600ish potency burst in 15 seconds.

You also can't have a tank that can survive more things than the other tanks or it would cause unbalance yet again. You can have one that does more damage but not defense as that is the most important part of a tank is weather or not they'll survive the next hit, putting more support bonuses on PLD would help but the best ones are already given to other classes except for hallowed ground.

PLD support abilities have potential to convert to DPS gain, SE has just been too cautious to allow it. Removing the cast time on Clemency for instance to function as reliably as Equillibrium would allow PLD to cover healing for a period, drastically boosting healer DPS. But that would be a lot harder to balance than just giving them more potency through Shield Swipes.

That's like saying water is supposed to be the wet drink. Sure, water may be the wettest drink, but you're going to want something more when you're dining. There are flavors to consider, textures, and other factors that make other beverages appealing. This doesn't make water any less desirable, but when paired with pasta primavera, you're likely going to want some white wine instead (especially when wine is also a drink that has water in it, and so therefore also wet by its definition).

Tanks are defensive by their very nature, so saying Paladins are supposed to be "the defensive tank" doesn't really stand to scrutiny. It's redundant, and not really distinct at all. There are things about Paladins that can be made appealing, but right now it doesn't really pair well with anything.

And I think a lot of people have a problem here: we want the job to be interesting and unique, and we come in with a love for the idea of a tank with a shield, but then we find out that SE slapped that shield onto the most generic job in the game, and we are disappointed.

Mayhaps PLD should stay as it is, and SE should develop a Javelinier/Spartan job (as just one possible idea) as a more involved "tank with a shield."

I'm sorry, but that initial paragraph was painful to read. Please refrain from using anymore analogies.

PLD is the OG. PLD seems generic because the other tanks have been built to mimic the job, nothing else can compete with a mitigation tank in a raid scenario. The only reason WAR & DRK can compete with it at all in raid mitigation is because the incoming damage itself has been nerfed(PLD/DRK mitigation scales with higher damage, War with lower) or adjusted to favor DRK. As for what you want out of the job, that's your own personal problem. I like the way it has developed with the exception of Clemency's cast time. The only reason I don't play it this raid cycle is because Alexander was designed for offense.

[Arrius]

I do believe Sword Oath should have more benefits when using that Stance, having only a very small bonus to auto-attack does feel very lackluster.

It could use something like +5% Acc, +7.5% Skill speed and perhaps boosting the potency of all offensive abilities by +20.

[Bravely_Default]

sword oath does not need a boost as paladin already does have enough damage while off tanking, boosting it even as much as you said would make off tanking as a paladin blatantly overpowered which is something it does not need. also shield swipe has 150 potency now and a 15s cool down which comes out to 600 potency if you use it every time it is off CD in the course of 1 minute.

[Disc]

I did not account for the CD, my bad.

[Jpec07]

I'm sorry, but that initial paragraph was painful to read. Please refrain from using anymore analogies.

Was there a point to your invective? Because if so, I don't see it. Invective like this is just rude and contributes nothing to the conversation (which is why it's generally frowned upon in formal debate settings and in general polite discussion).

PLD is the OG. PLD seems generic because the other tanks have been built to mimic the job, nothing else can compete with a mitigation tank in a raid scenario. The only reason WAR & DRK can compete with it at all in raid mitigation is because the incoming damage itself has been nerfed(PLD/DRK mitigation scales with higher damage, War with lower) or adjusted to favor DRK. As for what you want out of the job, that's your own personal problem. I like the way it has developed with the exception of Clemency's cast time. The only reason I don't play it this raid cycle is because Alexander was designed for offense.

And that's well and good, but that doesn't change the fact that having an identity as "the defensive defender" is shallow, redundant, and pointless (WAR is "The damaging defender" and DRK is "The magic defender", if I had to use *gasp* another analogy). Passively taking less damage is well and good, but would more interesting gameplay be a bad thing? We can passively mitigate more damage than the rest, but the job itself is otherwise flavorless. There is absolutely nothing unique about PLD right now outside of their external healing ability (which is clumsy and easily interrupted), and their slightly enhanced physical mitigation (thank you shields). And I think that's why a lot of people, myself included, wish that they'd do something to change it.

[Bravely_Default]

thinking about it even if sword and shield oath were not OGCD, making it so they had like a .5 second cooldown or something that would bring a slight benefit to dancing may be what the paladin would need for main tanking and would also bring a little flavor.

[SpookyGhost]

If ShO/SwO are made off the GCD then WAR switching from Deliverance to Defiance has to instantly heal the health gained and the CD for ShO/SwO has to match Defiance/Deliverance's. Otherwise it's not a problem.