Thread: 3.1 MSQ Reaction [SPOILERS]

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Ish ... At the very least, Minfilia and the Sahagin elder jointly assume Elidibus was responsible.
The sahagin's dying words are even, "Curse you Emissary, you said I would be immortal!"

I don't think those words mean anything specific though. Had Elidibus just revealed to him the details of how the Echo he already had worked, the result would have still been the same, just as what happened to Lahabrea when Thordan the Primal was around.

That I'm not sure about at all. I'm just going by the in-game characters' assumptions for now (which could prove to be flawed). Neither the Sahagin elder nor Thordan and his knights show any sign of being touched like Ysayle. They seem to have the same core ability to break down barriers to merge with deiforms, but don't have the weird side effects. I have no idea what to make of it and am just working with what I have until I have something better, lol.

By "touched", I'm assuming you mean Blessed? We were talking about, either in this thread or another that I also follow, the fact that Hydaelyn's Blessed all have at least one Crystal and can acquire more if they're strong enough, like in our case where we got all 6. I definitely don't see someone like Thordan having the Blessing. Then again, the Echo seems to be the only thing that you need to have to be able to become a Primal. We know that you can have the Echo without having the Blessing, and that you can't have the Blessing without having the Echo. It's probably within the realm of possibility that Thordan and his knights would have the Echo. Otherwise, it would be strange to think of how they came to be Primals, and I don't think the power of Nidhogg's eye is enough of a reason.

If it's Elidibus granting this power, it doesn't seem to be quite the same. Some theorize that it's because of a difference in Echo between divine loyalties, but I'm waiting until the top layer of theory is proven or refuted before I build a house of cards that doesn't actually have much in it. For all we know, the Echo isn't required to merge man and deiform - it just seems to be based on what Elidibus, Lahabrea, and Nabriales said.

Not quite the same in the sense that it's weaker because it's not coming from either Zodiark or Hydaelyn? Actually, rather than just being an assumption we make based on what Lahabrea said, it's rather that he and and Igeyorhm both told *and* showed us that the Echo was what allowed them to do it by merging right before our very eyes. Ysayle *was* Blessed but it doesn't seem to be Hydaelyn's intent for her Blessed to become Primals, as far as I can tell.

The little biographies of the Heavens' Ward hint that at the very least they tempered Grinnaux.
I don't want to jump to too many conclusions until we know base ones are good, though.

May I ask where you can find those biographies? I don't remember seeing them anywhere but I would love to read them.

I put that together from three pieces. First, Estinien tells Iceheart that Nidhogg has always followed the Eye, but now completely ignores him in favor of Ishgard. Then you've got the fact that Nidhogg rallied ... just everyone. Midgardsormr himself - the father of dragons, king of kings - rose to join in the song. It was much more serious than any of his past marches, or so we've been led to believe. And finally - there's an optional piece of dialogue with Estinien. It's his theory, lol.

Sounds like he's accusing Nidhogg of knowing what's up, being too afraid to come himself, and yet amassing a historic siege.
Hraesvelgr said that the war was always for their spirits as of a thousand years ago. Ask Midgardsormr last week? "Ishgard shall burn."
Makes sense as a starter theory. /shrug

Very interesting. Actually, with a few other people, I was discussing how Midgarsormr's whole opinion seems to have changed between 2.55 and 3.0 (at least the end of it). He seems to solidly be on Nidhogg's side when he first meets us, and only later does he agree that Nidhogg needs to be put down. I actually don't quite know what to make of it given the initial disdain that he shows for all of Ishgard. Of course, I am referring to Midgarsormr's japanese dialogue since his english one is lol unreliable.

I'm not sure if anyone expected that the mythical Keeper of the Lake - Guardian of the Falls - created by the gods themselves - would actually show up.
Erik even says that the event proved the gods were true in the eyes of many Eorzeans.

Sorry, I'm relatively new to these forums, who's Erik?

I agree with most of the Gaius points, so I feel it necessary to clarify one thing: I'm not trying to paint him as sympathetic, just better than his peers. He's not devoid of what makes the Garleans horrible, he just has more of what makes them "eh, maybe not entirely wrong". When I try to demonstrate that by pointing to an "honor" that others seem to lack, I'm not talking about, like, King Arthur's honor. I'm talking about... like... mafia honor. Mafias tend to do a whole lot of horrible stuff, but those that keep to the code are generally favorable compared to those who have none. Compare to piracy vs. rogues' guild.

Oh I agree. On most of his arguments, Gaius pretty much looked good on paper. I was ready to sign up for the Garlean army myself tbh by the end of 2.0 lol. But it's when you look at his actions that you're like "but you're still a megalomaniac murderer". Haha, I wonder if it can really be called honor or if it's something else though. Btw, I'm a big fan of the rogues' guild, I was very pleased (and also very amused) to find out that my boy Thancred used to have connections with them.

At the very least, the ends didn't justify the means when the annihilation of the primals meant the annihilation of every living thing in Eorzea. He wanted the glory of raising the Imperial standard over a land that had been "saved" and purged of its tainted influences. He looked Nael in the face and called him depraved (despite being powerless to do anything about it and subsequently being mocked for it).

If you're referring to his reaction to the very first use of Ultima when Lahabrea took over, after some thought, I've come to think that maybe his reaction was more of "omg you just destroyed my base" and less him being horrified about the actual destructive power of it. I could be wrong, of course, but it amuses me to think of it that way.

I can tell you that (it is said) Lahabrea and Elidibus are of our world and the other Ascians are not. I can tell you that (it is said) Lahabrea and Elidibus are "original" and the other Ascians are "transmigrations." Can't tell you what that means, though. I'm guessing they "transmigrated" from "the original genesis" before everything they knew was "shattered", and Lahabrea and Elidibus came from the subsequent mortal world, originally, but "partook of Zodiark's power" and fight to see "what was shattered made whole". Those boundaries are so vague that they could mean anything. To highlight how little we know about it, the Ascians could be from the "Age of the Gods" that was destroyed when Zodiark came to power as the thirteenth, youngest, and most powerful of them due to alignment with Darkness. Alternatively, literally all of that could be wrong. We don't know much.

The whole thing is like an itch I can't scratch. I want to know so much more than we're told. I do remember that Elidibus tells us that Lahabrea is special even among their kind. I always took that to mean he was especially strong, but who knows.

As is the case with my loyalty to the Crystal, I'm not giving up on Urianger just yet. He was Louisoix's most trusted pupil. The other Scions laughed at how naturally he played an enigmatic villain simply because he'd "spent more time with old books than modern people". A guy like him, you don't just let the chance to hear out the Emissary, seemingly aligned with the Ascians, who hasn't been on the mortal plain in thousands of years, pass you by.

I've never played 1.0, only read up a *lot* about it and watched cutscenes, especially of Ul'dah because I love Thancred and I find the whole Ul'dah plot amazing. I kind of vaguely remember what you're referring to, but if you have an actual quote or cutscene video about it, I'd love to view it again to confirm it. I don't think Urianger ever gives you reason to doubt him anyway, he's too much of a deadpan straightforward guy for that.

Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

The bio of the heavensward can be found here.
They are short, but quite interesting.
Sorry to butt in like this, but since nobody answered so far... o.o

No problem! Anyone can jump in if they have answers or just something to add.

The part where it's implied he might have been tempered in bold.

Thanks! The website has honestly had some loading issues for me, so I haven't gone on it much.

I think this is related to him seeing how far gone and insane his son is now, and Aymeric's honesty in wanting to end this battle. Our interaction with Hraelsvelgrs brood in Annex Trine might have helped, too, but since we also killed an awful lot of dragons at the same time I'm not quite sure about this myself.

Well, I've said so before, but I can still understand and sympathize with Nidhogg much more than with the Ishgardians. They just really have not impressed me, at all, except for those like Aymeric, Haurchefant and Edmont. There's a whole culture of hypocrisy and learned helplessness that is rather grating to me in that country.

Well, I guess you have a point. He's still my favorite villainous character so far.
The Rouge quests are great! Loved all of them, especially the one with V'kebbe and a certain sandwitch

Compared with some other classes' really tedious last few quests, Rogue really had some interesting ones even when they were a bit difficult.

In 1.0, Gaius actually opposed Naels Project Meteor and even helped the players trying to prevent the plan to go through by giving them information. One of the reasons I said he generally tries to minimize (civilian) casualties; though I have to admit that having being his command over the Eorzean conquest taken away in favour of Nael probably played a part in it, too.

Yeah but see, Gaius wants to minimize casualties pretty much only because he wants non-Garleans to rule over, and he essentially says as much in 1.0. So I rather have trouble seeing anything he does as being out of the goodness of his heart.

Yeah, it's quite frustrating how little we know about the Ascians so far. Yoshi promissed to lift some of their secrets in Heavensward, but...
But, yeah, this particular part was brought up in... 2.1, I think? Anyway, it's one of foundations of the 'multiple worlds' theory going around.

Well, specifics about Lahabrea and Elidibus have never been provided, and whether or not they keep Lahabrea dead, it would still be nice to know those things.

Originally Posted by Tenkuu

Thanks! The website has honestly had some loading issues for me, so I haven't gone on it much.

You are welcome

Well, I've said so before, but I can still understand and sympathize with Nidhogg much more than with the Ishgardians. They just really have not impressed me, at all, except for those like Aymeric, Haurchefant and Edmont. There's a whole culture of hypocrisy and learned helplessness that is rather grating to me in that country.

I can't, because he's essentially torturing generation after generation of people who where fed lies from infancy and living under a government that brutally kills anyone who digresses from their 'true belief'. (Seeing this typed out, it sounds awfully familiar...). Then again, I don't really like many of the Ishardians, either, since many we meet are utter jerks. Still, I feel with the lower classes and hope Aymeric will be able to acutally improve their lifes.

Compared with some other classes' really tedious last few quests, Rogue really had some interesting ones even when they were a bit difficult.

Heh, absolutely.

Yeah but see, Gaius wants to minimize casualties pretty much only because he wants non-Garleans to rule over, and he essentially says as much in 1.0. So I rather have trouble seeing anything he does as being out of the goodness of his heart.

True. Still puts him above his countrymen in my eyes, especially genocidal maniacs like Nael. Though I have to admit I strangely felt with Nael at the end of T9 as well...

Well, specifics about Lahabrea and Elidibus have never been provided, and whether or not they keep Lahabrea dead, it would still be nice to know those things.

Absolutely!

Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

I can't, because he's essentially torturing generation after generation of people who where fed lies from infancy and living under a government that brutally kills anyone who digresses from their 'true belief'. (Seeing this typed out, it sounds awfully familiar...). Then again, I don't really like many of the Ishardians, either, since many we meet are utter jerks. Still, I feel with the lower classes and hope Aymeric will be able to acutally improve their lifes.

If you think about it from the dragons' perspective though, just about every Ishgardian is descended from those knights and therefore have Ratatoskr's blood in them, therefore their very existence is a reminder of that betrayal. When you look at it that way, Nidhogg's inability to get over it is much more understandable.

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

My personal preference at this given moment would be that our involvement just completely tears that nation apart. Cities at landbridges between realms usually have a long history of conflict. Driving out the core Imperial structure would create a power vacuum into which would be drawn Garlean loyalists, Kingdom loyalists, reformists, Fists of Rhalgr, upstarts... I'd love it to be a city like Whitegate - full of interesting characters and factions and perpetually in conflict for the rest of the game.

We've seen as much Garlean military as we have Allagan remnants, though, so unless we're in for more than cermet and magitek and bleak black fortresses, I don't really care to see the homeland, lol. The throne room didn't look much different than a castrum. Unless we forge some truce and have an excuse to see a unique culture going back farther than their military industrial revolution, I'd rather they just collapsed off screen like the previous Emperor and let us go about our business somewhere like Thavnair or Othard or, hells, even the New World.

Likely any involvement with Ala Mhigo *will* cause conflict because it's pretty much under Garlean rule, but like you, that is exactly what I want to see out of that place. I'm also not interested in seeing more Garlean-style fortresses and other dark and imposing buildings, and I would like for Ala Mhigo to have a culture if it should be visited. However, as I mentioned before, I'm more interested in us going to the Sharlayan country. Don't know whether it would be in the cards, but it seems inevitable to eventually address their issues of non-interference.

Originally Posted by Cilia

It clearly is, but to play Devil's Advocate...

... while Gaius had sympathetic motives on the surface, deep down he was little more than an ambitious, power-hungry conquerer like the rest of the Garleans. He had standards, and a point that Eorzeans likely turn to gods because they're not strong enough to accept hardship, but ultimately the reason he wanted to conquer Eorzea was to prove that he could do so. (It's also why he opposed Project Meteor, as using a cataclysmic weapon of mass destruction to lay waste to the land would leave nothing worth conquering.)

Yup, that's exactly what I've been saying: Gaius is ultimately just another Garlean with motives that don't much differ from his comrades'. He doesn't conquer for the good of others, but it's what he pretends to justify his actions. He makes several good points about Eorzea and its Primals but goes about dealing with them the wrong way.

Originally Posted by Tenkuu

If you think about it from the dragons' perspective though, just about every Ishgardian is descended from those knights and therefore have Ratatoskr's blood in them, therefore their very existence is a reminder of that betrayal. When you look at it that way, Nidhogg's inability to get over it is much more understandable.

Yes, maybe. But if we all thought like this, we probably would have died out centuries ago, because peaceful coexistence couldn't be possible. I don't want to drag real live politics in here, but imagine what would have happened with this mindset after WWII...


And even then, torturing the greatgrandson/daughter of someone who killed your sister won't bring her back alive, it won't help anyone and will only create more hate and bloodshed in the long run, on both sides. It is meaningless. But that's exactly what happened here; Nidhogg condemned not only Ishgard, but his own children, too. And that's something I got no understanding for.

Likely any involvement with Ala Mhigo *will* cause conflict because it's pretty much under Garlean rule, but like you, that is exactly what I want to see out of that place. I'm also not interested in seeing more Garlean-style fortresses and other dark and imposing buildings, and I would like for Ala Mhigo to have a culture if it should be visited. However, as I mentioned before, I'm more interested in us going to the Sharlayan country. Don't know whether it would be in the cards, but it seems inevitable to eventually address their issues of non-interference.

I'm absolutely not interested in Ala Mhigo... everything I've seen from Ala Mhigans, with some exceptions like Raubahn and Wilred, was very negative. I don't want to help them. However, in the long run, it will be necessary to liberate the place, and yes, there will be conflict at this time. Besides, I think Yoshida mentioned they would bring the Garleans back within this patch cycle, so it is possible we will be heading there soon. Even though I would like to see other places much more as well. However, I got the feeling I would punch in one face or the other over at Sharlayan, so not sure if that's the best place to be for me

Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Yes, maybe. But if we all thought like this, we probably would have died out centuries ago, because peaceful coexistence couldn't be possible. I don't want to drag real live politics in here, but imagine what would have happened with this mindset after WWII...

Imagine that you have lived for over 100,000 years. 100 years of that is just a tiny tiny fraction. In fact, it's pretty hard for us to imagine because we won't even live close to that long. They live their lives much differently than we do. Their concept of time is very different. Thousands of years and Tiamat still has to punish herself.

And it's not like Nidhogg's thoughts are shared totally by Midgardsomr and his other children. But they do understand the hate and anger. Some of them would like to get past that, yes. Nidhogg is one hateful dragon but I can't completely blame him just as I can't completely blame the current generation of innocent Ishgardians.

Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

And even then, torturing the greatgrandson/daughter of someone who killed your sister won't bring her back alive, it won't help anyone and will only create more hate and bloodshed in the long run, on both sides. It is meaningless. But that's exactly what happened here; Nidhogg condemned not only Ishgard, but his own children, too. And that's something I got no understanding for.

Doesn't matter that it won't bring them back to life, what matters is the hurt and remaining bitter feelings that something like that betrayal caused, the feeling that you've been wronged. Also, if a person killed another person's sister and ate their remains, the children of that person wouldn't have the sister's blood in them, so the two situations can hardly be compared. Tbh, it's quite cunning of Nidhogg to use something that they stole from a dragon against them.

I'm absolutely not interested in Ala Mhigo... everything I've seen from Ala Mhigans, with some exceptions like Raubahn and Wilred, was very negative. I don't want to help them. However, in the long run, it will be necessary to liberate the place, and yes, there will be conflict at this time. Besides, I think Yoshida mentioned they would bring the Garleans back within this patch cycle, so it is possible we will be heading there soon. Even though I would like to see other places much more as well. However, I got the feeling I would punch in one face or the other over at Sharlayan, so not sure if that's the best place to be for me

I can see some good in the Ala Mhigans. As to the Sharlayans, I'm really interested in seeing exactly how they'd explain away their policy of non-interference. I would probably want to punch a few people too, especially given the implication that it's not just Louisoix but all of the members of the former Circle of Knowing who are looked badly upon by them. However, I get the feeling that ultimately, advanced technology and knowledge or not, the Sharlayans will be forced into the same conflict as the rest of the world.

Originally Posted by Cilia

I agree that there's nothing wrong with discussing characters, but Gaius had nothing to do with 3.1 (hell, he's been dead since the end of 2.0) and Minfilia's been figuratively beat to death. There's already a (pretty popular) topic for that; why do we need to drag it over here?

Cause it's a trigger in these discussions. It came up because Minfilia was the one character missing from the scions in 3.1.

On the actual topic of 3.1, I have two things this patch made me feel is very likely.

Firstly, I think the conflict with Nidhogg will at some point reach its climax at Silvertear lake. They said that we will find out what is under it and Nidhogg is clearly changing his game plan. I suspect also that the Garleans will come in as a major player in the final part of this expansion cycle and if Silvertear lake does hold something important I can see them making a stab for it too.

Secondly, I feel all but certain we will be going to Ala Mhigo next expac. Ive just finished levelling all the Jobs and one thing I noticed in all of them was what seemed to be a training and development of the military assets of Eorzea. Either new advanced fighting techniques became available to the city states, old orders were renewed or restricted disciplines showed the first signs of becoming more active and accepted. Now we see our allies working actively with the Ala Mhigans against Garlamald and we know Garlamald is on the move. Finally they have been mentioning a feature where you train your own unit from your GC. All these things give me the feeling that next expac we will see a open war conflict type expac against Garlamald with the clash of military between the Garlean war machine and the Alliance's forces.