Learning how to properly play AST

[Marianno]

I know some people mentioned it earlier but does anyone have any thoughts as to what exact cards would I use for each job. Most times I use balance and RR expanded to spread the effect but I tested this out on some of my guild mates and noticed that when I tried to use ewer on DRK and it said no effect even when the drk was low on mp.

[AzureFlare]

Ewer: Either a healer or BRD if you absolutely don't need it at all and RR would be a waste/bait. You can use it on SMN as well in some cases. Other jobs generally can't do anything with it.

Spear: Any job pre-pull, either yourself (if you plan to use big cooldowns soon and you can work around it), any job you think will use cooldowns soon (and again, can work around it). SMN for Aetherflow, NIN for Ninjutsu/Ogcds, BRD for ogcds and DRG for ogcds. It is a card that is hard to determine which person will benefit most, sometimes the best use could be giving it to a BLM so they can Enochian sooner and avoid awkward downtime between phases.

Bole: Tank or a target you're afraid won't survive a mechanic. AoE Bole is a possibility in case you do end up having it, but don't rely on it.

Spire: Any job that has low TP or can use the TP to AoE better. Generally RR fodder.

Balance: Highest DPS at that moment. Also check who just used burst cds if it is a blank or enhanced Balance, a good bursting DPS will benefit more than a slightly better, non-bursting DPS if the duration is just 30s.

Arrow: Same as Balance, but a bit more constrained since not all jobs make the same use of attackspeed. Would generally put it on a BLM first, otherwise a MNK, then just pick the DPS you think is performing best (generally DRG would be next in line). Be careful since Arrow will cause any TP users to drain TP faster, which is easy to forget. You can also use Arrow to boost your own healing or you co-partner's healing, making it the only card to increase HPS.

[Seoulstar]

It just kind of devolved into that after my first post on page one in response to OP's worries if AST could keep up with WHM/SCH completely unintentionally and I do apologize. Some people are incredibly stubborn, myself being one of them.

Well at least you're apologizing, so +1 for that lol

[TatoRazzino]

I haven't posted here in a while, but this thread caught my attention and I actually have some doubts about AST's DPS numbers. I apologize in advance for the (really) long post, but I think it will be useful for AST players or someone that is wondering if they should play AST.

It would be pointless to compare both WHM and AST with SCH, since SCHs branch from a DPS class and they also have more MP control, which allows them to continue DPSing for longer than the other two healers; what I'm really curious about is the comparison between WHM and AST, because I haven't seen any actual numbers that show that AST has a noticeable lower output when compared to WHM.

It is a known that there is a shortage of skilled AST players in end game content due to the fact that the job was considered to be weaker than WHM and SCH, which made all the professional groups choose the 2.x healing meta; the community followed the trend and the AST is still the healer that is used the least, even though its healing output is now much higher than it used to be. My point is: is there any actual data from AST DPS output to support the claim that they do less DPS than WHMs in actual content?

Looking at the DPS toolkit both jobs have may be misleading. I'll post here the math I did, and I would like to see some comments on that. Keep in mind that I'm not willing to start a war, I'm actually asking for data to work with. If anyone finds any problems with my math, please comment.

If we start with the WHM toolkit, we have the following DPS skills:

- Stone (140 potency, heavy effect)
- Aero (200 combined potency)
- Fluid Aura (150 potency, off-GCD, short range)
- Stone II (170 potency)
- Aero II (250 combined potency)
- Holy (200-100 potency, AoE around the caster)
- Stone III (210 potency)
- Assize (300 potency, off-GCD, AoE around the caster, restores 10% MP)
- Aero III (370 combined potency, AoE) [Edit: I made a mistake when calculating Aero III's potency in the first version of this post, but AzureFlare corrected me. I'm going to adjust the values in the whole post]

Now let's look at the AST toolkit, which is far more simple:

- Malefic (150 potency)
- Combust (240 combined potency)
- Stella (100 potency, heavy)
- Combust II (450 combined potency)
- Gravity (200-100 potency, AoE)
- Malefic II (200 potency)


In a single target situation, if we take a sample of a 2 minutes fight with a 2.5 GCD (I'm considering the default timer, which is obviously reduced by spell speed or Presence of Mind or Diurnal Sect), we'll have a total of 48 GCDs.

For WHMs:

Using Stone I and II seems pointless since they're weaker than Stone III, and using Aero seems like a DPS loss unless you're trying to weave your off-GCDs, so the skills I'm considering are:

Aero III: since it lasts for 24 seconds, you'll use that 5 times in a 2 minutes fight (120/24). The total potency will be: 1850. Aero III has a 3s cast time, so I'm considering that it not only uses 5 GCDs but also delays the entire GCD (even if we use Swiftcast, we can only use it twice in 2 minutes so we still have 1.5s of delay). For that reason, I'm counting the 5 times you use Aero III as 6 GCDs.

Aero II: it lasts for 12 seconds, so you'll be able to use it 10 times in 2 minutes. Total potency: 2500

Fluid Aura: we can use it 4 times in a 2 minute fight, so the total potency is 600.

Assize: we can use it 2 times in a 2 minute fight, so the total potency is also 600.

Unless we want to delay the GCD even more, we'll need 6 windows to use all of our off-GCD skills. Since we can use Swiftcast 2 times, we'll only have o use Aero four times to keep the GCD running. The total potency for Aero would be 800.
The total amount of GCDs used were 20 (10 for Aero II, 6 for Aero III and 4 for Aero). That leaves 28 GCDs open for Stone III. The total potency for Stone III would be 5880.

So, basically, the total potency for a full WHM rotation, keeping all the DoTs up and weaving all off-GCD skills without delaying the GCD so much is: 12230. We have to keep in mind that we were assuming a 100% hit rate, and we're using Assize for DPS, which burns a healing cooldown, and we're having to move close to the enemy to be able to use Fluid Aura.

For ASTs:

We can also cross-class Aero, but since it has the same potency as Malefic II, I'm not considering that here. We're also not using Malefic or Stella, since they do less DPS than Malefic II. Considering the same amount of GCDs, we have the following:

Combust II: we can use it 4 times. Total potency: 1800

Combust: we can use it 6 times. Total potency: 1440

Malefic II: we can use it 38 times. Total potency: 7600

Since all the ASTs skills only take 2.5, there's no GCD to delay and by using both Combust and Aero, you have more than enough time to Draw/Use cards. The total potency for the AST toolkit would be: 10840.

That's 12230 (WHM) versus 10840 (AST); a difference of 1390 potency in favor of the WHM. At the moment (ilvl 207, eso weapon, Foe Requiem), my Malefic IIs hit for around 2K (average), so I'm gonna use 10:1 as a damage : potency ratio to make the calculations easier. That leaves us with:
122300 damage for WHM and 108400 for AST. If we do a damage/time calculation we have: 1019.17 DPS for WHM and 903.33 for AST. A difference of 115.84 DPS.

AoE numbers are harder to calculate in this level of abstraction since they depend on a lot of variables (number of targets, for example), but it seems clear that a WHM will have the upper hand since Aero III and Assize hit multiple targets. Holy and Gravity are pretty much the same, but Gravity has the advantage of keeping the caster in a safe spot.

Nevertheless, if we're considering only the numbers, we can assume that a WHM will do more DPS than an AST in this abstract, ideal situation (which we would have in a dummy). If we add Presence of Mind to the equation, the WHM numbers will go up, but I chose not to do that because (to avoid creating numbers that are even more biased) I would have to consider the difference between Diurnal/Nocturnal cast times for AST and the fact that it is possible for ASTs to buff themselves with Balances or Arrows.

[TatoRazzino]

Now let's consider some things:

To reach these values in this specific situation you have to DPS for 2 minutes non-stop and 100% of the spells have to hit. In an actual healing situation, this probably won't happen. Considering that both AST and WHM usually act as main healers (since it's a general consensus that SCH is mandatory in a raid group), the chance of a situation like this happening is very low. So we have to consider stance dancing, healing context and also positioning. So let's think about some points:

- If the WHM is far away from the target, it will not be possible to use Fluid Aura (that is also the case if the enemy can be knocked back, which usually irritates tanks and DPS players); that alone reduces the WHM's potency by 600. AST's DPS wouldn't be affected;
- In a healing intense fight, a WHM may want to save Assize for healing. That alone will reduce WHM's DPS output. ASTs wouldn't be affected by this, since they don't have any spells/skills that work like Assize;
- If we consider the way that Cleric Stance works, we know that it's easier to activate/deactivate it when the GCD is running. WHMs only have one spell that keeps the GCD running, while ASTs may have two spells if they cross class Aero. In my opinion, if the AST knows how to do a proper rotation it is easier for ASTs to stance dance efficiently. This, however, is a personal opinion;
- If the targets do many ground AoEs and can't be stunned, using Holy is very dangerous and that may reduce the WHM's ability to do AoE DPS. ASTs can do it safely from afar;
- In a healing intensive fight, sometimes the main healer only has the time to put up DoTs every now and then. The total combined potency of DoTs for WHM is 820 [Edit: look at the previous post edit info], while the AST's DoTs have a combined potency of 890 (considering Aero). Also, all the DoT's from the WHM toolkit have an initial hit, which means they can miss; Combust and Combust II bypass the accuracy requirements, which allows the AST to land 690 combined potency DoTs with 100% hit chance. That's a big advantage if we're considering a situation in which the main healer can only add some DoTs;
- Finally, we have to consider the fact that ASTs can buff other party members and this can make up for the lower DPS numbers when compared to WHM in an ideal situation (just like BRDs and MCHs make up for lower DPS output). Even if you not Draw many Balances or Arrows, the utility in itself helps in overall DPS increase (e.g.: in A2S, drawing many TP/MP cards may allow your BRD/MCH to do more DPS since they may not need to play songs/set up turrets and also add more DPS from Foe/Overcharge). WHM’s can only contribute to DPS by adding it directly.

After this (very very very very) long (and boring) reasoning, I’m inclined to believe that in an actual PvE situation, the DPS output difference between WHM/AST becomes irrelevant (if not nullified). WHMs have a stronger toolkit, but it’s more complicated to use and it also involves some compromising (like burning Swiftcast, Presence of Mind and Assize for DPS instead of healing); AST’s toolkit is less strong, but it is also more flexible and easier to use. On top of that, they can increase the group's overall DPS even if they don't use any kind of DPS skill; that is not the case for WHM.
If any of you guys have any evidence that blows my reasoning, please say so. I’m really interested in this discussion

[AzureFlare]

Don't know how you got to 1450 total potency for Aero 3, since Aero 3 is 50 + 40*(24/3) = 370. 5 * aero 3 would be 1850. I went over your calculations and since the rest of it is correct, the total potency would be 12230, making it 122300 damage or 1019.17 dps for WHM.

Don't forget that with the changes, there's nothing RNG/unreliable about starting your parse with an extended/enhanced Balance. Considering you would put either variation (or even more likely, expanded Balance) at that point, a 10% difference will be made up by the cards.

You did mention you were working under 100% hitrate, but this one feels like it should get some more emphasis. I think the missrate is what, a third or so without any accuracy above base? So being really lenient to the WHM and considering an equal spread, WHM would miss 1.67 Aero 3, 3.33 Aero 2s, 1.33 Fluid, 0.66 Assize and 9.33 Stone 3. AST would miss 12.66 Malefic 2.
Multiplying those numbers further would give you 12230 - (617.9 + 832.5 + 200 + 200 + 1959) = 8421.5 potency for WHM, and 10840 - 2532 = 8308 potency for AST, making the difference a little less than 2%. (Do check my calculations since it is early here.) AST also has the benefit of adding 5 seconds to any Mind potion used, for how much that helps during the opener (it can add up very nicely).

Now I do realise that this is a very theoretical way of calculating with missrate since you're more likely to sacrifice Stone 3 potency compared to the others. Let's say for missing, any spell replaceable with Stone 3 would be replaced with it, making this a lower-bound calculation in favor of WHM. In this case, we'd have 9.33 + 3.33 + 1.67 Stone 3, 1.33 Fluid and 0.66 Assize, or 13.33 Stone 3, 1.33 Fluid and 0.66 Assize.
Then the potencies would be 12230 - (2799.3 + 200 + 200) = 9030.7 compared to AST 8308. Still a lower than 10% difference which a single Balance during the raid's opener would arguably nullify. Not doing the math right now, but I'm pretty sure even a missrate as low as 20% would have the WHM drop below a 10% difference on the lower bound calculation, which in reality escalates into an even further deficit for the WHM. Add to this that Balance additions are fairly stationary since tanks and DPS should have the accuracy requirements, pulling AST even further ahead the higher the missrate becomes, and since damage scales fairly linear and more strongly for DPS (in terms of DPS, thanks to missrate), AST again pulls even further ahead as gear goes.

And since I know people will bring up the "u shun't doe twu minutez, WHM haz bettuh manaaz". Let's assume both AST and WHM have 14k mana. Assize would restore 10% mana, 1400 in this case, every 90 seconds. I think Shroud and LA both restore.. 707 mana per tick? (Need someone to confirm, I might be off here) and you'll extend LA every 2 minutes for a 1404 mana gain. 1400 / 90s vs 1404 /120s, or 15.55mana/s vs 11.7 mana/s . I can tell you right now, if the AST draws a Spear only once and it gives you an additional LA + CO cast on the fight (so say shroud would be 8 casts and LA + CO would be 8, but now becomes 9), AST gains a 3505 mana advantage and nullifies one Assize advantage.
So you'd need 3505 / (15.55 - 11.7) seconds for WHM to pull ahead. For whoever hasn't done the math, that is 910.4 seconds, or an encounter of 15:10 minutes, excluding the mentioned nullfication of an Assize boost. I don't think there is an encounter that lasts that long. Given, the odds of this happening are also not the greatest since you'd have a 20second interval before the WHM gets their shroud again (including animations, assuming perfect downtime), and you'd likely need more than 1 Spear to achieve this effect properly.

Suppose instead we draw the much safer and reliable Ewer. Ewer gives us 1325 mana unbuffed, 1855 if using CO. In the first case, for WHM to pull ahead the fight would have to be 1325 / (15.55 - 11.7), you'd need the fight to last 344.2 seconds, or 5:44 minutes. In the case of the CO-extended Ewer, 481.18 seconds or 8:01 minutes. Now since Ewer is 100% foolproof and most fights don't last beyond 11 minutes, it is easy to see now an AST that puts 2 blank ewers or an extended ewer will win the mana war. In that same 11 minute fight, that is 2 cards in a total of 23 or so, minus the initial AoE Balance setup. If you get that Ewer during your LA + CO combo, the WHM is done for mana-wise, and it is very likely to draw at least 2 Ewers, an extended Ewer or an enhanced Ewer (spread and combo into LACO) during 11 minutes.

I know the debate goes further than that to the point you look at Freecure, Lightspeed, potencies and manacosts, but this was strictly looking at it mana wise. I'm actually a little baffled myself looking at the numbers.

P.S. Would love to know your det and MND being at ilvl 205 with eso and my Malefic 2 hits maybe 1800-1840 on average.

[NamoNanamo]

My point is: is there any actual data from AST DPS output to support the claim that they do less DPS than WHMs in actual content?

You have one site that record all the upload from the parser. I don't know If I could give you the name. But I agree that doesn't show you enough information.
When I look to Moogle Server/ranking, Only 20 Astr for Opressor, 11 for a2s and 0 for a3/a4s.
And when you look at the number of total parse, you got so much less Astrologian.

Before doing theorycrafting about the dps. I think we should discuss about the role of the Astrologian.
Does he dps ? How much time ? Against who ? With a whm/sch/Astro ? How many monster/boss ? Do you need to move a lot or not ? Which sect ?
If you said: 'I'll compare Astr to whm that Solo Healing the first part". You will not be able to dps a long time. And the consequence will be high. Burst dps/dot will be better, I'm looking at you PoM/Assize/Combust etc.



Give us a "real" context/background. More concrete/practical situation.
Imo, The dps and the healing is almost equal between Ast/Whm.

P.S. Would love to know your det and MND being at ilvl 205 with eso and my Malefic 2 hits maybe 1800-1840 on average.

I do +- [1733-1905] damage with
- Thordan weapons
-1061 int
-517 det
-686 crit
-Alone Ilvl207.

[AzureFlare]

Before doing theorycrafting about the dps. I think we should discuss about the role of the Astrologian.
Does he dps ? How much time ? Against who ? With a whm/sch/Astro ? How many monster/boss ? Do you need to move a lot or not ? Which sect ?
If you said: 'I'll compare Astr to whm that Solo Healing the first part". You will not be able to dps a long time. And the consequence will be high. Burst dps/dot will be better, I'm looking at you PoM/Assize/Combust etc.

Give us a "real" context/background. More concrete/practical situation.
Imo, The dps and the healing is almost equal between Ast/Whm.

Why would she have to?
Her portrayed situation was in an area where WHM has the advantage: 100% hitrate, able to fire OGCDs, filler spells mattering. She only kept PoM for healing rather than DPS, but didn't use the cards either. If WHM pulls ahead by a mere 10% in one of their most advantageous setups, that is already a strong argument in favor of her own point.
I mean sure, you can think of A3S and hitting all the adds with Aero 3. You can also think of hitting multiple things with Assize and you can also talk about situations where you can multi-DoT which favors the Combusts. But the lower the uptime, the more effect the cards will have. The more AoE, the more beneficial it will be for the WHM unless they die in like 9 seconds. She was trying to debunk the whole 'WHM does more l33t damage!!11!' thing and she did a pretty good job at it. Heck, you both agree the damage capacities of WHM and AST are fairly similar anyway.

[NamoNanamo]

My english isn't my first language so I got hard time to explain.

I'm for she was trying to do. There is a lot of "discrimination" about Astrologian and misconception.

But Healer got strong relationship with his party. So I think we need to have a "systemic" view. You aren't only dps, you aren't only heal. And your co-healer(and other mate) is gonna determinate how you will play.
So I think it would be better if we took some real example like a1/a2/a3/a4 Thordan etc. And explain why Ast/whm/sch is better and how you play for ?

[PogueX]

Don't worry about AST not being able to "keep up" on healing compared to the other classes. Synastry is the greatest healing ability ever allowing you to heal two people at once, likewise Noct sect and your support abilities make the class really good. I like it better than WHM cause of their support abilities