The Greystone Bastard (naming lore query)

[Tenkuu]

Damn, I hadn't finished replying to that post and planned on editing it later, totally forgot about it...

Since you're going to be pedantic like that, here is the exact quote.

I'm not even the one who brought up this point, but thanks! And I really think you're misunderstanding the meaning of the term pedantic here, especially since I wanted to look at the japanese version of this, and that quote is not it. Having now heard the quote in japanese, I can confirm that Ilberd says nothing about the Scions in there.

He goes on to whinge about Ala Mhigo, of course, but this is the important bit.

Actually the important bit is right there in the sentence you just posted: he is whining.

Of course, there's a big difference between working for the amoral Lolorito and working for the righteous, upstanding Scions, but he does have a point. We do good things, but only as the champion of others' causes. This is changing, as the Warrior of Light sought to finish the Knights of the Round in part to avenge Haurchefant and our collaboration with Leofard is entirely voluntary. That said, in 2.x we're just a tool to be thrown at whatever is bothering X city-state right now. We'd never fight for a cause we don't believe in, but that still doesn't change the fact we're not fighting for our own cause beyond self-preservation.

Were it only others' causes that we were championing, we wouldn't be fighting in the first place, because that is not the sort of character the Warrior of Light is. On the contrary, it is because we found those who will help us in championing a common cause that we have joined the Scions. Depending on each player's personal feelings towards those NPCs, it may be easy to miss, but the various little quests we do before joining them make it clear. The Scions do not approach just anyone, they approach those who have proven to have a righteous character and the strength to fight for their convictions.

Since we're not tagging spoilers here I guess... I dunno, maybe foisting the burden of being "Eorzea's hope" on you? Fray never says anything the Scions said or did impacted you in a meaningful way, but that's likely just because the issue doesn't come up during the storyline. Fray is a collection of all the "darkness" in your heart - all the negative thoughts and emotions you feel, but repress because you think it's wrong to feel and think that way.

Even if that was a burden we did feel, it would hardly be cause for rancor towards them. Also, I feel like you need to check this out.

Naturally, facing yourself is no easy task. The only thing that would have made it better would have been your Shadow, after manifesting, saying "I am a shadow of your true inner self..."

I don't disagree at all about us having an inner darker self, I'm just completely certain that it absolutely does *not* concern the Scions. If there is only one group we can trust to be our unflinching allies, they are it.

[Tenkuu]

Since I completely forgot to edit the original reply, here is the rest of it.

Similarly, in the Lv 50, the knights who asked your help--like the Scions--proved to be good people who were willing to pull their own weight in dealing with the problem, and the accusation of Heresy wasn't actually a consequence of having helped them in any way. While your character might have personally felt backlash against the Scions, the quests themselves do not, as far as I can see, actually suggest that this should be the case for everyone.

Indeed, for me personally, the strongest argument against your claims is not the fact that the Scions gladly risked themselves to let us escape, but Minfilia's "you are my pillar of strength" scene. Given I had already felt very close to her before it, that scene--to me--cemented the sense of having a very close relationship with her, along with the rest of the Scions. Also note that the first thing she says when saved in 2.0 story, even before thanks, is that we shouldn't have risked ourselves to save her. That certainly isn't the way I'd expect someone to react to being saved by someone they saw only as a tool.

Thank you so much for saying that. I feel like many of the people who are quick to diss the Scions forget all too easily that they do pull their own weight, and have been doing so long before your character ever came along. And the scene with Minfilia that you describe was indeed strong, but the one that stuck to me the most was another: when asking you to save Thancred, Minfilia acknowledges that she's only asking you for a personal favor, and in the japanese version it's very clear that she's near tears as she says it.

Edit: I do feel the need to add that Alphinaud is the exception here--but I never quite thought of him as one of the Scions. In 2.x quests, it's much easier to make the argument that he saw us as a tool, but that has a lot to do with his particular character, being a precocious son of the very elitist Sharlayan nobility. Alphinaud in 2.x saw himself as being much more important than he was, looking down on his sister and her views and seeing us as little more than a useful tool. But even that started to change over time, and in HW it's definitely almost entirely a thing of the past. But projecting Alphinaud's attitude onto the rest of the Scions doesn't strike me as a appropriate.

Alphinaud is a kid who never saw much value in Eorzea to begin with, but *we* convinced him otherwise. He isn't really that precocious though, you can tell he's a good person who just puts on a brave face in his and Alisaie's Tales from the Calamity. Also, it isn't that he looks down on Alisaie, but rather that he is the more composed of the two and Alisaie is the more emotional one. Even so, he doesn't hesitate to lend her his aid, and let her lead the way no less, when he joins her in the Coils. From what I can see, it really is just the dub making him look worse than he is. The dub tends to make him sound a lot more flowery and eloquent than he actually is, you can notice this when the text goes on for a whole paragraph when the japanese speech is either just a few words or one long sentence.

And back on topic--maybe for others, the fact that he didn't ask much of is was why they liked Haurchefant, but that wasn't a huge aspect of it to me. And where it was, it was not in contrast to the Scions and our other allies, but rather the fact that he was much, much, much more reasonable in his dealings with us than anyone in Coerthas had been. I certainly appreciated his enthusiasm in the scene where he'd actually had to be restrained from coming to help us fight, but us that really any different from, say, Thancred's frustration over not having arrived for Ifrit sooner? And according to Edmont, he saw us as hope personified--very similar to Y'shtola's sentiment of us being the beacon of hope toward which all men are drawn. At least for me personally, much of what made Haurchefant so deeply likable was his similarity to our (at that time missing) friends in willingness to help and support us unconditionally from 2.55-3.0.

What I loved most about Haurchefant was that he was a passionate person who appeared to be bordering on the slightly unhinged. Like others, I too at first felt uncertain of whether he would turn out to be a traitor because of how flamboyant he was. As for Thancred, his frustration was less over the fact that he could not help us specifically and more with the aftermath of the fight being the deaths of several people. Not that he actually could have done anything since preventing the summoning of a Primal would have been a taller for even him.

[Tenkuu]

This might just be me thinking it, but your Dark self from there is basically just your darkest self. GENERALLY the WoL wouldn't think of them that way, but your Dark version mostly only thinks in negative ways about everything else that it colors all of your memories...making it seem as if you were just being used, that they (and everyone else) don't give a damn about you, so why should you care?

I've seen Persona 4 be used as a comparison, and it fits. Your Dark self is you at your worst...which btw says alot since even with the pile of bodies there when you show up right before fighting none of them are dead. Even your darkest self is good.

The way I see it, even your dark self thinks of the Scions as a part of you, and of you as a part of them. The reference to being used seems to be concerning all of you, and not just you the Adventurer.

[Tenkuu]

The first part is basically exactly what happened to Thancred, but he was driven by his own dark emotions rather than an external, extremely overwhelming primordial force whispering it and exerting influence, as Midgardsormr does to you. Look what happened to him when he pushed himself like your character does and no one stopped him.

You can be certain that Lahabrea had a more personal hand in Thancred's emotional breakdown than what we saw. After all, Thancred himself implies that he fell into an Ascian's trap, and it was during his investigation of them that his possession began to take place.

[Tenkuu]

Let's be fair here: It's outright stated that the WoL didn't tell the full story of what happened to them. It's only after everyone else leaves that they reveal to Minfilia that they lost the Blessing of Light, for instance, and only because she sensed something 'off'. (As a point in your favor, though, in the JP version Middy says there's no need to keep the seal a secret. Yet they do anyway.)

Minfilia does say that she doesn't wish to worry the other Scions, and you assured her that it was not a problem, after all.

The WoL is a very similar case. Remove the Scions from the equation, and they become aimless. See: Right after the attack on the Waking Sands. There was very little indication that they were going to go on to do anything more for a long while yet, before Alphinaud showed up and kicked them back into gear. Fact is, they need the Scions just as badly as they need us.

This is pretty much exactly what I said: without the Scions, we lose our purpose. After the raid on the Waking Sands, we were literally just going where other people told us, until we got to the church and the priest told us to take our time and didn't send us off anywhere. We were back to being the lone Adventurer doing odd tasks for random people, only this time we didn't have much to do in terms of helpful tasks either.

[Dualblade]

The way I see it, even your dark self thinks of the Scions as a part of you, and of you as a part of them. The reference to being used seems to be concerning all of you, and not just you the Adventurer.

While possible, being that "our" dark self doesn't call on us to find the other Scions and leave with them, but just to leave on our own, leave EVERYTHING behind, implies the Scions are put in the "using you" group as well be them. But again because your dark self is the most negative part, and thus only sees everything they asked of you in a negative light.

And of course I haven't seen the JP version so who knows, maybe even their the dark self is a bit more charitable of them.

[Tenkuu]

Yes we do get support (mostly in the form of information) and yes we do (arguably) become friends with the Scions over time, but the only reason they brought you in is because Yda and Papalymo / Y'shtola / Thancred thought you would be a useful asset to the organization. Even they show little concern for your well-being, except a little bit from Minfilia here and there, but I think it should be remembered that she is the one leaning on us more often than it is the other way around. (That bit from her after Nabriales' defeat and Moenbryda's death, man, that kinda rustled my jimmies...)

On the Scions, check the link I posted in another response to you. There is no way that they do not show concern for you. And I feel the need to mention again that by the time they brought you in, you were not exactly much to look at. You had a few monsters and maybe two dungeons under your belt, hardly anything that in and of itself would catch their attention. However, because they had been watching you and bore witness to your righteous character, they knew that you were a good fit for their organization. You need only look at their organization to know this to be true: they are a non-profit secret organization (until the ending of 2.0 anyway) with access to knowledge that few others possess, and which many in the past have been shunned for (and technically speaking, the Garleans would very much still shun you for it). They use this information solely to save Eorzea from its many dangers. Also, with regards to Minfilia, considering that she is burdened with far more responsibilities than you are, it makes sense for her to be the one to lean on you rather than the opposite, and even so you can confide in her. Because you both have the Echo, she feels like she can speak to you in ways that the other Scions might not be able to understand as non-Echo users.

We were emotionally devastated in the wake of the Ul'dah incident, but the point is we were originally brought into the Scions because we were a cool and badass fighter who impressed the local Scion(s), if I recall correctly. That's the point I'm trying to make. (Not sure if valid but servers are down and too tired to wait 8 minutes to check...)

We were cool, but not in the way you mean it. What ultimately led your respective Scion(s) to approach you was your unflinching defense of an innocent woman. You may remember that the fight itself was a joke (just listen to the music that accompanies it); what impressed your respective Scion(s) was your bravery, determination, and willingness to risk yourself for another.

If we stopped doing every bit and errand for everyone who asks it of us, people in general might learn to solve their own problems and let us deal with the big issues that really need our attention, like Primals and Ascians, and we might be freed of Hydaelyn's yoke sooner.

But again, Primals and Ascians are forces we cannot deal with on our own no matter how some may like to say that the Scions don't do much. The simple truth is that they do their job, and you do yours.

While Fray does hold more credence as repressed personality traits, Ilberd also commenting on it hit way too close to home for me - kinda like the scene where Loki tells off Black Widow in the first Avengers movie. And, having soldiered through DRK 30-50 before really touching 3.0's story, it was still very fresh in my mind. (Better closure for 2.x than the MSQ delivered as well, IMO.)

Ilberd has zero credence, he's literally just a raging bull at this point. Since Fray is you, she is merely the negative aspects of you, the insecurities more than anything else. The you that is whole (ie that acknowledges Fray's existence but also has positive emotions) knows how to deal with those, and does so on a daily basis.

As for what we can do without the Scions - we proved in 3.0 that we don't really need them to accomplish great things. We're running with just Alphinaud (largely a diplomat), Tataru (secretary and odd jobs), Yugiri (who may or may not be an official Scion?), and Urianger (who doesn't even show up until the eleventh hour to hand us an Auracite). We do get Y'shtola back and she is helpful, but by that point we've downed two primals, traversed an entire nation and then some, and brought to light truths that had been kept in the dark for a millennium. We accomplished plenty without them, even if we did still have Alphinaud to point the way.

We did absolutely nothing special in 3.0, and most of my frustration with it stems precisely from that. The little we *did* do was uncoordinated and chaotic, and every move we made, whether you like it or not, was overseen by Alphinaud and the authorities in charge in Ishgard. You may call Alphinaud just a diplomat if you wish, but the simple truth is he is a Scion, and is beginning to truly be suited to the role of one. Either way, the chaotic pace of 3.0 alone proves that we are unsuited to not being with the Scions.

Now, what does this all have to do with Haurchefant? Well, when it comes down to it, Minfilia (and by extension, the rest of the Scions more likely than not) "sacrificed" herself so we could get away since we're "Eorzea's hope." Haurchefant's reason for doing so was just because he didn't want to see us get hurt, which puts him closer to a real friend than one made out of convenience in my book. Yes, we saved Francel for him, but the only reason he couldn't do that was because of his station, and he asks nothing further of us. Haurchefant even brings us cocoa to help cheer us up after the Ul'dah incident! (Cf. the Scions, who give you nothing but meager pay and the tools to tackle the Primal of the week on occasion.)

No offense to Haurchefant, but he literally does not have to deal with you on an everyday basis. The Scions, on the other hand, might offer you "meager pay", but their headquarters are your home as much as it is theirs. Since we've already disputed the whole "the Scions protected you because they care about you VS they just protected you because you're the hope of the world", I won't address it again. Also, I said it before, but the Scions' only actual obligations to you are contractual. They are quite literally your co-workers, yet they treat you like family.

People do get better about seeing the Warrior of Light as an actual person in 3.0, with Estinien chastising Alphinaud for knee-jerk deciding to throw us at Ravana. He's even worried when we get back, and admits that he's taken our successes for granted thus far, as if he's realizing for the first time we are people and we can die. After the Vault, the Warrior of Light is in almost a perpetual tranquil fury over Haurchefant's death and, even if you don't choose that dialogue option, vowed to avenge him - they're no longer just running on orders or considering what's best for everyone.

To be fair, what does Estinien know about Alphinaud? To be even fairer, all Estinien does throughout the story is take childish shots at Alphinaud. Estinien is quite literally more immature than Alphinaud, and quite frankly, I don't respect him or his opinion at all. Alphinaud is reasonable so he can take criticism especially when he sees some truth in it, but he also has the tendency to be too hard on himself as of 2.55. I'm pretty certain that it isn't at all the first time that Alphinaud realized that we are normal people, but at the same time, he knows that we are the only ones who can defeat the Primals, so it's not as much of a knee-jerk reaction as Estinien leads him to believe. It's not like I don't agree that we were upset over Haurchefant's death, but there is no way that we stopped considering what was good for everyone, and we certainly didn't stop concerning ourselves with our friends and innocents getting trampled by the Garleans.

[Pomelo]

When does Minfillia say the pillar of strength thing? I honestly can't remember >.<

[Tenkuu]

When does Minfillia say the pillar of strength thing? I honestly can't remember >.<

According to what I've found, this is shortly after Moenbryda's memorial. From what I'm seeing though, this is not in the rewatchable cutscenes, sadly.

[Cilia]

I'll have you know, I'm only doing this because my server is down. Again.

The way I see it, even your dark self thinks of the Scions as a part of you, and of you as a part of them. The reference to being used seems to be concerning all of you, and not just you the Adventurer.

The unfortunate implication of such an interpretation is that you believe the Warrior of Light has no identity beyond that of a Scion, or the title of "Warrior of Light." Which is just malarkey. It could be argued that much of Fray's, meaning your, anger stems from the fact that people do not see you as anything other than those titles and what they carry with them.

Anyway, you wish to contest that some part of the Warrior of Light is willing to throw away everything and start anew someplace else, say Thavnair or Othard, without the Scions?

We can leave it behind. All of it. The Scions. The Alliance. Even Hydaelyn. All we have to do is ask, and [Fray] shall set us free.

Whether you choose to believe it or not is immaterial; the proof is in the pudding, even if the recipe was changed a little by "Fray." Who is you.

On the Scions, check the link I posted in another response to you. There is no way that they do not show concern for you. And I feel the need to mention again that by the time they brought you in, you were not exactly much to look at. You had a few monsters and maybe two dungeons under your belt, hardly anything that in and of itself would catch their attention. However, because they had been watching you and bore witness to your righteous character, they knew that you were a good fit for their organization. You need only look at their organization to know this to be true: they are a non-profit secret organization (until the ending of 2.0 anyway) with access to knowledge that few others possess, and which many in the past have been shunned for (and technically speaking, the Garleans would very much still shun you for it). They use this information solely to save Eorzea from its many dangers. Also, with regards to Minfilia, considering that she is burdened with far more responsibilities than you are, it makes sense for her to be the one to lean on you rather than the opposite, and even so you can confide in her. Because you both have the Echo, she feels like she can speak to you in ways that the other Scions might not be able to understand as non-Echo users.

I never said nobody else showed concern for you, just that if you want to be cynical about it, it's not concern for you as a person but concern for you as a utility. Tataru does seem to care for you as a friend, but the bit from Alphinaud is from 3.0 and in reaction to Estinien's comments, who you stated you do not respect in the slightest. After the Ifrit battle, though, the Scions have few qualms about sending you in to do battle with Primals time and again when any ordinary person would be scared out of their wits. And the Warrior of Light is terrified even if they don't show it to anyone else.

That friend of mine-the one I told you about after our first communion. We came out here together, once. Long story short, we ended up doing something ridiculously foolish and were lucky to make it out alive. I tried to talk [him / her] out of it, but s/he just had to get on that damn boat...

Fray is talking about you and your fight with Leviathan here... and since Fray is you, you're basically admitting you were scared to go fight Leviathan, and it was an incredibly stupid and risky plan. Bismarck is even crazier.

I fail to see how Minfilia is burdened with more responsibilities than the Warrior of Light. One does paperwork, one regularly tangles with phantom gods that will lay waste to the land if suffered to remain manifested too long, on top of shadowy sorcerers intent on bringing ruin to the world and gods know what else. Hmm... yep, that paperwork sure is stressful!

But again, Primals and Ascians are forces we cannot deal with on our own no matter how some may like to say that the Scions don't do much. The simple truth is that they do their job, and you do yours.

I'm not saying nobody does anything to help us; they just leave all the heavy lifting to us. Nobody else regularly risks life and limb. We're put into life-or-death situations and expected to do the work of a dozen men, and nobody bats an eye or gives us much more than pocket change and a pat on the back. While that is what heroes do...

There is something to be said for [going on a journey]-and for travel, for that matter. To roam free and help those in need... Yet no good deed goes unpunished, does it? ...I knew a [wo]man once. Wanted to be a hero, do great things. And so s/he did. The songs always end there. But life doesn't, does it?

... if you look past the ideal hero the Warrior of Light is built up as in 2.x...

Ilberd has zero credence, he's literally just a raging bull at this point. Since Fray is you, she is merely the negative aspects of you, the insecurities more than anything else. The you that is whole (ie that acknowledges Fray's existence but also has positive emotions) knows how to deal with those, and does so on a daily basis.

Ignoring Ilberd just because he's a villain is foolish. He is not right, but he has a point.

Fray is the negative aspects of your personality, but that doesn't mean s/he is just anger and bitterness. If you pay close attention, you see flashes of happiness when you agree with Fray's general outlook, and s/he shows signs of sorrow and despair throughout the 30-50 line. The Warrior of Light obviously can't deal with all of the shit that's been heaped on them; otherwise, Fray wouldn't have been so bitter and angry. We pretend we're okay, we put on a brave face for everyone - but deep down inside, we are on the verge of collapsing.

Warrior of Light really needs a hug, not someone else to throw them at a phantom god that can easily kill them if they falter ever so slightly.

We did absolutely nothing special in 3.0, and most of my frustration with it stems precisely from that. The little we *did* do was uncoordinated and chaotic, and every move we made, whether you like it or not, was overseen by Alphinaud and the authorities in charge in Ishgard. You may call Alphinaud just a diplomat if you wish, but the simple truth is he is a Scion, and is beginning to truly be suited to the role of one. Either way, the chaotic pace of 3.0 alone proves that we are unsuited to not being with the Scions.

Debatable. It depends on what you quantify as "special."

I acknowledge everything we did was pointed to by Alphinaud; that's why I consider him the "true" protagonist of Heavensward. We're just his muscle, as always.

I'd appreciate it if you could explain to me what you mean by saying 3.0's pace was "chaotic." It was a pretty standard 3-act show. And, we got along pretty well without the Scions, or at least the core members of the group most people think about when you say "Scions."

No offense to Haurchefant, but he literally does not have to deal with you on an everyday basis. The Scions, on the other hand, might offer you "meager pay", but their headquarters are your home as much as it is theirs. Since we've already disputed the whole "the Scions protected you because they care about you VS they just protected you because you're the hope of the world", I won't address it again. Also, I said it before, but the Scions' only actual obligations to you are contractual. They are quite literally your co-workers, yet they treat you like family.

That's what makes Haurchefant a good friend, though - he helps you out when you're in the area, is nice and all that, and leaves you to your devices. The Scions do the same, but call you whenever they want something from you. Haurchefant doesn't. When you're in the area you hang out with him.

I know the Scions are a surrogate family for the Warrior of Light, and we did suffer a lot for losing them. But there's nothing saying that some part of them can't be angry and bitter at them for seemingly sacrificing themselves because you're "Eorzea's hope," forcing you to carry an impossibly heavy burden with almost half a dozen peoples' lives directly on your shoulders. It's illogical and irrational - that's fine, because people aren't always logical and rational.

To be fair, what does Estinien know about Alphinaud? To be even fairer, all Estinien does throughout the story is take childish shots at Alphinaud. Estinien is quite literally more immature than Alphinaud, and quite frankly, I don't respect him or his opinion at all. Alphinaud is reasonable so he can take criticism especially when he sees some truth in it, but he also has the tendency to be too hard on himself as of 2.55. I'm pretty certain that it isn't at all the first time that Alphinaud realized that we are normal people, but at the same time, he knows that we are the only ones who can defeat the Primals, so it's not as much of a knee-jerk reaction as Estinien leads him to believe. It's not like I don't agree that we were upset over Haurchefant's death, but there is no way that we stopped considering what was good for everyone, and we certainly didn't stop concerning ourselves with our friends and innocents getting trampled by the Garleans.

Why would it matter what Estinien knows of Alphinaud? He knows Alphinaud is sending us off to fight Ravana and assuming that we'll be successful - that's what we always do. Alph isn't thinking about how we feel or what we want to do; he just says "We're gonna kill Ravana because it's what the Scions do. (And by the Scions, I mean that's your job, Warrior of Light, since you're the only one who can kill Primals.)" That's treating us like a tool, which Estinien calls him out on.

I didn't come here to debate Alphinaud and Estinien's character in 3.0. I think Alphinaud grew from 2.x and Estinien was a complex and relatively mature character, if a little rough around the edges. Leaving it at that.

I never said we stopped thinking about the common good, just that it isn't the only reason we're fighting towards the end of 3.0.