The Greystone Bastard (naming lore query)

[Tenkuu]

You outright stated that, even in the darkest depths of their soul, the Warrior of Light thinks the Scions are an inseparable part of their identity. Yes they are our good friends and coworkers, but we have an identity outside that, and as I proved with the DRK 45 Quest Log, some part of them wishes they could get away from it all and eke out a quiet living.

Again, the Scions are who you *identify* with. They have the same ideologies as you. And guess what, you are one too. That is how they are a part of your identity. No one ever said you don't have an identity of your own, just that the Scions, as the group you choose to join, are the part of your identity that's most critical to you. What you quoted is nothing new anyway, as again, everyone wants a break from their everyday life every once in a while. It's also the Warrior of Light's character to simply want to do the right thing, so they are no more interested in fame than the Scions are. And that's another thing: the Scions are more similar to you than you seem to believe. Given the chance, they would also rather live their own quiet lives, and very clearly enjoy the bit of perfectly ordinary lives they have outside of their missions.

The DRK 45 Quest Log says so. Even if they don't consciously acknowledge it. Believe whatever you will, but know the truth.

That doesn't mean the Warrior of Light would throw everything away, but that a part of them wants to.

And? None of that contradicts what I said, which is that everyone has those thoughts of wanting to get away from it all, but that ultimately this wish is only temporary and we want to come back to friends and family.

I'm not even talking about Ilberd here, I'm directly quoting the DRK 45 Quest Log (hijacked a bit by "Fray"). And Fray is not a "small" part of you; s/he is everything you are and feel but deny for whatever reason (primarily social restraints). S/he is half of you, not a fraction. I also don't care what the tone of the Japanese version is. I'm running purely on the English version, and while the Japanese version does provide more context sometimes, nothing I said there had anything to do with Ilberd.

I was referring to the previously mentioned scene where Ilberd's rant in english clearly had him mentioning the Scions as being among those who just use you whereas the japanese version had no such thing. Given the liberties taken in that scene, a main scenario scene, I don't doubt that such liberties could have been taken with the DRK quests as well, especially if this anti-Scions attitude is more of an American thing, which from all I've seen, I'm given to believe is the case.

I recognize I'm the one being cynical for its own sake, and I don't know why you take issue with that. Looking at things from different perspectives provides deeper insight. I have nothing against idealism, but I try and use multiple viewpoints. That's why having the three characters we did with us on 3.0's main journey was beneficial - we had Estinien (the cynic), Ysayle (the idealist), and Alphinaud (the realist) to balance everything.

Ok, now you're just being sarcastic... Or you're oblivious to yourself. You were the one who first accused me of being cynical when I was not, and I told you that you're the one being cynical because you are, since you're taking the most negative stance possible on everything and believe the worst of the Scions among other characters. I take no issue with anything you've said, other than to strongly disagree with it, except when you accuse me of being cynical. I hope that clears things up. I don't believe I am an idealist, else I would not mind the Ishgardians in general as much as I do.

I know exactly where Fray came from. The problem is that few people seem to acknowledge the Warrior of Light's feelings; while you do regain control during the 50 quest, who's to say the pressure and despair won't build to the breaking point again? Things are looking up during 3.0, but we suffer more trauma through it.

Sure, things can build to a breaking point, but then again that is why we rely on the Scions as our support group, and is also why we are so lost in 3.0 without them to the point of reaching a breaking point.

The Scions have been at their job for about 5 years; the Circle of Knowing came from Sharlayan what I would approximate to be a few months before the Calamity. Minfilia maybe a bit longer, but who's to say. We're still the one with the short end of the stick 9 times out of 10.

Wrong. The 1.0 cutscenes clearly point us to 15 years ago from now (10 years ago from the time of 1.0). It is very clearly shown that the Scions, as the Circle of Knowing, have been involved in trying to prevent the Calamity, by identifying the dangers to Eorzea and getting the leaders of the three city-states to act in setting up their defenses, since 15 years ago. Given that our four main Scions have obviously known Louisoix for a good while before that, that puts it at being *at least* 15 years ago. Depending on what you believe of their ages (Thancred claimed that he was 17 15 years ago), knowing that they are all Sharlayan experts and factoring in anywhere from about 6 months to 1 year for the plot of 2.x, it could be as much as 20 years or more that they have been working with Louisoix. Minfilia, for her part, has known Thancred for about 15 years, give or take those 6 months to 1 year for 2.x.

Fray is more than your doubts and insecurities. Do you know what a psychological shadow archetype is? Fray is the Warrior of Light's shadow, with all that entails. Not just a "bad" version of them, or an embodiment of their negative feelings (though those are a pretty major component of it).

Actually, that is exactly what Fray is. Fray is everything that you repress, which is the negativity, which is rather normal. People tend to repress their negative feelings and thoughts until they either blow up or deal with them using a coping mechanism of some kind. And actually, with all of the having you go to places and interactions that you and she have, I'm more inclined to believe that rather than being part of you, Fray is just a reflection of you.

I'm not going to continue to beat this now undead horse and am fine with simply admitting we have a difference of opinion. But no, I have never been in a managerial position.

How exactly is it a dead horse? When you don't know something, it's not just a difference of opinion, it's something you are ignorant of. Even never having been in a managerial position, I would think you'd understand that they get paid more than you for having more responsibilities, ie more work. This is exactly the position that Minfilia is in.

I never said nobody else risks life and limb. I said nobody else risks life and limb as often as we do, which is almost constantly.

And who are you to make that claim? You, as the Warrior of Light, have been fighting for a grand total of maybe 2 years. How did others who have been fighting for far longer than you survive all this time? By risking themselves every single day. Just because they don't take the same kinds of risks as you does not make those risks any less important.

Were we physically impaired as a result of the Ul'dah incident? Of course not. But there's psychological scars, even if the Warrior of Light hides them, that will simply continue to be cut deeper as s/he finds out his/her close friends were handicapped protecting him/her. It's called "survivor guilt."

So? Are we the only ones who were psychologically scarred? Obviously not.

Nobody who really knows us thinks of us as a machine, but they never try and bring up an alternative solution to a primal summoning. Their first and only option is to throw us at it.

On the contrary, they have always tried to stop the primal summonings with discussion, ever since back in 1.0. Fighting is always a last resort since they didn't have the means to do so, and when you came along, it became a possibility but not the preferred one.

Everyone who only knows of us thinks we're the ideal hero, though. The Warrior of Light him/herself doesn't believe it (just look at Fray), but tries to live up to those expectations - and it puts them on the verge of psychological collapse by the beginning of 3.0, to say nothing of the shit that gets heaped on them throughout that story. Doing the DRK 30-50 line does help them regain some composure, I think, but it's not like the fear, doubt, and despair is gone - you're just actually acknowledging it and actively fighting it now instead of pretending it doesn't exist.

You can see even in the level 40 DRK quest that this simply isn't true. They acknowledge that you have your own business to deal with, but they ask for your help because they have no other options, even knowing that it will inconvenience you.

Only Saturday Morning Cartoon villains say things just to hurt you, and while Ilberd is far from the most sympathetic villain in the story, he still has noble intentions at heart. His actions are simply very disagreeable. He thinks we're blind and ignorant, and unless you consider what he's saying may have a grain of truth to it, you are blind and ignorant. Willfully.

That's rather silly to say, especially considering that even Saturday morning cartoon villains are an existing stereotype. There are all kinds of villains, and those who only want to hurt you, in Ilberd's case out of his own bitterness, don't care about the truth, only about making everyone as miserable as they are. If you think these only exist in Saturday morning cartoons, you need to watch some more crime shows. Ilberd's intentions aren't noble so much as they are short-sighted and desperate. No one who truly expects to get something done thinks that it will happen overnight or if they throw enough of a fit for people to look at them. People like Ilberd can make absolutely nothing happen because their only answer to every problem is violence, and we all know that violence has never solved anything, least of all political problems. So no, what he's saying does not ring true as far as the Scions are concerned, but we do know that we're being used by the nation leaders, in some cases like with Merlwyb much more obviously so.

Estinien makes assumptions, but they're based on what he's seen. That's not unfair. And like it or not, Alphinaud says "The Scions are gonna kill Ravana cuz it's what we do" knowing full well you are the only one can do it, and makes this declaration without asking you if you feel you're up to it or are afraid or anything. Yes, it's your "job," but he could at least have the decency to ask.

Again, Estinien knows nothing about our relationship with Alphinaud, it is not his place to either question or assume anything about him, least of all behave like an immature bully. Alphinaud has also seen us handle primals enough times to know that whether we are afraid or not, we will do the right thing because it's what we can do in the situation. There is much more to Alphinaud than what you see at a first glance, this is obvious even in 2.x.

Fray is half of you, psychologically speaking, not just a tiny piece.

No matter how you look at it, this doesn't work. Do we have fears, doubts, and do we even feel annoyed at people over certain things? The Garuda quests to find a specifically aspected crystal show us that yes, we do, and it's not like we don't show it either. Is it a major part of our character though? Does it ever take over? The answer is an obvious no. As such, it's impossible for Fray to be anything but a tiny part of you or, as I've stated above, even a reflection of you.

After some of the introductory dungeons and trials, everything is treated as a solo affair. Giving you advice, feedback, and information (when they do that) is not the same as standing back-to-back with you on the battlefield, which rarely happens (but it does happen). You don't really have anyone to lean on, because none of them know what it's like to be on a barge in the middle of the ocean fighting Godsdamned Leviathan while he tries to throw you into the sea and there's Sahagin swarming your platform and...

This is what you don't get, that having someone to lean on doesn't mean being physically reliant on having someone face a fight by fighting with you. Either way, the simple truth is you never fight alone. With Ifrit, Thancred is investigating with you, and when it's Titan, Y'shtola is with you. With Garuda, Alphinaud and Cid are with you, and the other Primal fights after that are basically treated as group outings. Literally the only thing they do not do, because they unlike you actually *could* get tempered, is to physically fight with you. So no, they might not know exactly what your fights feel like, but they certainly support you and give you the strength and conviction to fight those fights.

If you consider the only thing the Warrior of Light is supposed to do fighting Primals, I guess. Going in blind and still coming out on top proves we don't necessarily need intel and preparation. We fight by the seat of our pants instead of having the path to victory spelled out for us. That was the point of 3.0, in terms of the Warrior of Light's character growth.

The point of 3.0 was showing the Warrior of Light get stronger, and that's about it. These 3.0 Primal fights were special fights because there was more inherent danger to them, but Ysayle still weakened Ravana for you and Cid still designed the device that helped you do significant damage to Bismarck. You went in blind, but again you had support and preparation, if not that of all the Scions.

And that is why Fray tries to get us to abandon our duties, lest we die a slave. (Being cynical again and you're just going to dismiss it. That's fine.)

You're the one treating it like it's worth dismissing, not me. Also, I never said being the muscle had a negative connotation. We *know* it's what we're employed for, but we also know that we mean more to the Scions than mere muscle.

Lacking guidance is not a bad thing. It actually proves we don't need a leash and collar to do the right thing, which is exactly what Midgardsormr was trying to test in us. The path to victory is not always spelled out, and wanting it so just proves you're in it for the glory. There's nothing wrong with making up the plan as you go, so long as you're willing to deal with the consequences.

You asked for the reason why I called 3.0 chaotic, and now you have it, simple as that. That for me is why 3.0 was such a mess, and why I couldn't like it as much as 2.0. Midgarsormr was trying to test your independence from Hydaelyn, not from your friends, and that was indeed a test that you passed. Saying that wanting a path to victory means wanting only glory is wrong though. The Warrior of Light wants victory because it furthers our cause, and our cause is trying to bring peace to Eorzea. And those consequences you're talking about, btw, those include Fray.

We're provided a few meals and a couple bucks by the Scions. Not even quarters. (Unless that's who's magically paying for my inn...) We have to buy our own homes and what we get paid by the Scions is nowhere near enough to do that. Not that it's their fault, mind, but that's still the way it is.

Quarters are like the bathroom, you're not going to see them in-game but you can be certain that the facilities are provided to you by the Scions. It's pretty obvious that we all live first at Waking Sands, then at Rising Stones.

Nobody provides you much in the way of psychological or moral support, except a little bit from Minfilia now and again.

You haven't been paying much attention to the story if you believe this.

Even if the Warrior of Light consciously denies wanting any recognition for their heroism, Fray (your subconscious) strongly disagrees and wants some. You do get some, but everyone is taking advantage of your kindness and generosity to heap more shit on you. Everyone. Minfilia even acknowledges she is doing so, repeatedly, but has no choice. Doesn't make it right or fair.

It's not like you don't get recognition, else you clearly would not have a reputation that precedes you everywhere you go. And yes, others do take advantage of this reputation to heap more tasks onto you, but they take advantage of the Scions and their long-standing reputation as well. In fact, they do so the very moment that the Scions are no longer a secret organization, and this is what forces us to leave for Mor Dhona, so we get to pursue our own agendas rather than be a slave to everyone else's. Minfilia does use you, but it is nowhere near the same as being used by random others who have no real connection to you.

Not here for this, I told you that. Moving on.

Doesn't matter what you claim with regards to this, the simple fact is that Estinien's behavior towards Alphinaud is asinine, childish and completely inexcusable.

The responses are vague enough they can be interpreted into most anything, but Fray (your subconscious / shadow archetype) says you set out to become a hero and do great things. Getting the title "Warrior of Light" didn't change you much, but it did put a lot of expectations on your shoulders - and you don't always want to live up to them, even assuming you can.

You get dialogue options throughout both 2.x and 3.x that are anything but vague, since they are the only shaping that your character gets. As I said though, becoming the Warrior of Light was never really part of the plan, it simply happened as you gained your Crystals of Light. Like any adult though, we take responsibility for our achievements and live up to the reputation we've earned ourselves. Are we going to have failings and moments of despair though? Multiple dungeon endings, especially the Coils, show that we will indeed regret some of the things that we have to do, but that we acknowledge them as not only necessary, but in the case of Coils, ultimately the right and good thing to do. There will be a positive outcome even if we can't always see it.

Without knowing the Scions, I don't think it's fair to presume the Warrior of Light would risk their skin for them the moment they joined the organization. We would fight to the death to defend them now, but we've known them for some time and are close friends with them. (I never said we weren't.)

Except of course that we *did* know one (or two if starting in Gridania) of their members, and even knew them since 1.0 if you had a legacy account. The Scions are meant to be your soulmates in a way, and are presented as such: their ideals represent what you yourself have been fighting for up until that point, but they are an organization whereas you are a lone individual bumbling about without any real knowledge of what's going on. They give you knowledge and offer themselves up as the ideal partners in a fight to protect Eorzea. This means that you bonded near instantly with them because a connection was made based on those shared goals and ideals. As such, yes you would have risked your life for them from the beginning, both to defend a common ideal and because of the fact that by the time you join, you've already become close to Thancred in my case. Not only does this mean that my character would have fought to protect him, but also that I would have fought to protect those close to him.

We were forced to do nothing. We chose to leave Minfilia & co. behind at the ending of 2.5.5, however unpleasant a choice that may have been.

You really haven't paid attention to the ending of 2.55, have you? We literally did not want to leave Minfilia and the others behind, but they all insisted that we do so. Was it a choice in the sense that no one physically pushed us? Sure. But it was still a decision we were forced to make in order to honor our friends' wishes. This is made especially obvious by your character staring back at the waterways even after they've gotten out. Really though, there's no point in arguing semantics here, because the fact remains that we were forced into the situation that we're ultimately in in 3.0. We had no way of going back for our friends at the moment without getting caught, which would have both gone against their wishes and landed us in a lot of trouble, so we were forced to leave and come back much later. Without Minfilia's urging, we never would have let her go off on her own.

... aaaand I'm done, because this took me like an hour and a half to respond to and is waaaaaay off topic. Seeya next time someone "disses" (criticizes) the Scions!

Nothing wrong with that. :P Took me about 2 hours myself and it's still fun and a good convo.

[Erendis]

Is it too much to hope for this thread to finally die? Those repeated essays of offtopic are really annoying...

[Kaiser-Ace]

Is it too much to hope for this thread to finally die? Those repeated essays of offtopic are really annoying...

Well considering a definitive answer was given with little or nothing left to interpretation, the only fate was to derail onto a new topic or to devolve into a salty flame topic about how Ishguardians are a bunch of hypocritical scumbags and foam at the mouth over that.

Of the two options, I find the former more interesting than the later.

[Frederick22]

Your last comments on Cilia

Ok this is really going way off topic now.

Honestly, I think you are nobody here to call Cilia ignorant and that she didnt pay attention to the story game, even the events of 2.55
It's more than clear that she has being deeply searching and watching the lore of the story game, specially the DRK.

Think whatever you like Tenku, but this is just a difference of opinion so get over with. You may think that everything must be your way and your way only, but wake up thats no how the world works.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Ok this is really going way off topic now.

Honestly, I think you are nobody here to call Cilia ignorant and that she didnt pay attention to the story game, even the events of 2.55
It's more than clear that she has being deeply searching and watching the lore of the story game, specially the DRK.

Yea, Cilia is our resident Dark Knight Lore Master. If anyone rivled her knowlage on that topic it'd be Moose Sensei and Lore Master Fern himself.

[Tenkuu]

Ok this is really going way off topic now.

Honestly, I think you are nobody here to call Cilia ignorant and that she didnt pay attention to the story game, even the events of 2.55
It's more than clear that she has being deeply searching and watching the lore of the story game, specially the DRK.

Think whatever you like Tenku, but this is just a difference of opinion so get over with. You may think that everything must be your way and your way only, but wake up thats no how the world works.

You're the nobody. It's easy to miss things in the game and need either a rewatch or to think about it a little more before figuring it out. You really have no place commenting on a thread just to say something of this nature. Also, please get a life. Stop picking fights for no reason just because it's been pointed out to you that you say pointless things at times. And btw, calling anything that we did at the end of 2.55 a choice rather than our hand being forced is definitely a mistake.

Yea, Cilia is our resident Dark Knight Lore Master. If anyone rivled her knowlage on that topic it'd be Moose Sensei and Lore Master Fern himself.

No offense, but anyone who would make such a claim is likely to be full of hot air. All you can do is do your research, debate stuff, have exchanges of opinion and hope that you figure out some of the more complicated lore.

And sorry for the late reply.

[Kaiser-Ace]

No offense, but anyone who would make such a claim is likely to be full of hot air. All you can do is do your research, debate stuff, have exchanges of opinion and hope that you figure out some of the more complicated lore.

No offense taken on my part, Because Fern is, indeed, The FF14 Director of Localization. That is indisputable fact.

Moose Sensei is easily one of the few players who rivle Lore Master Fern due to how long he and several others have kept the Lore all the way back to 1.0, and Cilia has put an unthinkable amount of study into the Dark Knight. To the point where Moose Sensei has recognized her on it.

And personally, if you'll review, the only reason I spoke against you (which I don't usually do on the lore Forums) is for bringing the real world into it.

Cilia IS the current player expert on Dark Knight by common consensus. I personally specialize on Aether, Primals, and Eorzean History but I don't claim expertize as most my info I owe to Moose Sensei and Enkidu Senpai.

And while Fred and I but heads now and then, I still respect him as a peer. So why the disrespect to everyone? This is the Lore/Speculation forum not the General Discussion/Nerd Rage forum.

Now, If you would be so kind GMs, I believe this particular thread has devolved to the point of closing it.

[Chewy2nd]

I just had a thought, would Ser Aymeric also be Aymeric Greystone, given he is a bastard, like Haurchefant? Or will his father have let him use the family name?

[Fenral]

He's probably a Greystone, considering he's more commonly known as a bastard around Ishgard.

But aw, man did you dig up a nice piece of Lore forum history. Dayum.