The Greystone Bastard (naming lore query)

[Tenkuu]

Arguably that's why Alphinaud, Estinien, and Ysayle all become friends with the Warrior of Light to varying degrees - they treat you more like a person than a tool compared to how it was with the Scions' "Go kill this primal, Warrior of Light!"

I don't feel that it's right to call us a tool to them. If you want to say that anyone was a tool, it would more likely be the minor Scions hanging out in the storage room who get sent out on little missions. We are included among the major Scions, directly aided by them, and entrusted with some pretty important missions. They're not asking you to do anything without them, they're asking you to work with them, and since you're the one with both the Echo and the fighting abilities, your abilities are used in the best way by having you fight the Primals while the other Scions do what they excel at (other than normal combat) and gather information for you. Either way, we are never sent off on our own without any support.

Would it invalidate his death though? I mean we'd have an actual primal we would feel conflicted about putting down and it would be a smart move by the ascians since they're struggling in their fight against us. You'd have a primal that's more than just your typical Garuda, Titan, Ifrit ect. who are just sword fodder. Shiva was interesting and so was Ramuh since they were more complicated than just a standard primal. I mean I doubt SE would ever do it, but I don't see how it would invalidate his death considering he wouldn't be the Haurchefant we know but a mockery of his person, like Bahamut was according to Tiamat. In spirit Haurchefant would very much remain dead.

Keep in mind that no matter how conflicted we felt about Thancred's possession by Lahabrea (which of course Lahabrea used to twist the knife in the wound), we still would have been forced to kill him if we hadn't been able to save him. And no matter how one as the player might have felt about him, he was still a friend and comrade to their character, especially if they started in Ul'dah. You could say though that the primary reason for saving him was because Minfilia begged us to.

In this they showed that the soul becomes part of the great lifestream and maybe one day parts of it will go back and be reborn as another person. Later also we have the situation with Y`shtola who was in the lifestream for a short time but she said that she had a hard time to keep herself together.

These two things show me that this version of the afterlife does not include any kind of heaven. And that its quite likely that anyone that dies loose their own self and be united with the stream only to maybe one day be reborn again as a completely new person.

FFXIV's Lifestream is implied to work in much the same way as FFVII's, right? If so, we do know that strong souls keep their personalities and can freely navigate the Lifestream, such as Aerith and even Sephiroth (maybe even Zack to some extent), and other souls are merely part of the Lifestream, integrated into it, until they can be reborn. Since the Lifestream is the lifeblood of the planet in both series, it would make sense that rather than a meaningless heaven, it is instead a way for life to never truly end.

[Cilia]

I don't feel that it's right to call us a tool to them. If you want to say that anyone was a tool, it would more likely be the minor Scions hanging out in the storage room who get sent out on little missions. We are included among the major Scions, directly aided by them, and entrusted with some pretty important missions. They're not asking you to do anything without them, they're asking you to work with them, and since you're the one with both the Echo and the fighting abilities, your abilities are used in the best way by having you fight the Primals while the other Scions do what they excel at (other than normal combat) and gather information for you. Either way, we are never sent off on our own without any support.

You're missing the point (and running on one quote that doesn't exist in-game for your argument). While we are given support, we're still just following orders. Nobody really cares what we want.

Ilberd's comments on how we're just a tool during "Keeping the Flame Alive," combined with many of the things Fray says during the DRK 30-50 line, really hit close to home. Nobody really cares what we want - not the city-states, not the Scions, not even Hydaelyn Herself - only what we can do for them.

Even if we're provided support, we're still just a tool. (But this is really off-topic...)

[Tenkuu]

You're missing the point (and running on one quote that doesn't exist in-game for your argument). While we are given support, we're still just following orders. Nobody really cares what we want.

I don't really know what quote you're talking about, I didn't quote anybody from in-game. If you're talking about your own quote, I wasn't referring to it specifically, but rather just to the general idea behind it. You can't say that we're "just following orders" though, our input is asked for several times and we fight the Primals because we agree that they're a threat, not merely because we were asked to. Even if you wanted to use the orders argument, the other Scions all follow Minfilia's. If she sends them somewhere, they go, and if she asks them to return and report, they also do. It is simply the way that their organization is structured, but there is no coldness to it, it is simply for the sake of order and clarity.

Ilberd's comments on how we're just a tool during "Keeping the Flame Alive," combined with many of the things Fray says during the DRK 30-50 line, really hit close to home. Nobody really cares what we want - not the city-states, not the Scions, not even Hydaelyn Herself - only what we can do for them.

And why would you listen to Ilberd of all people? As for Fray, of course your dark side would find all of your doubts and insecurities and prey on them. Lahabrea did the same thing to Thancred, remember? Just because they bring it up doesn't mean that it's true; all it means is that in one moment of despair, people are inclined, or at the very least tempted, to believe those things.

Even if we're provided support, we're still just a tool. (But this is really off-topic...)

I can't agree with this. Having abilities and being useful, and having people around you make the most of those abilities while providing you with support, does not make you a tool. Besides, the tool argument would hardly apply to only us: the Scions have been at it since they were the Circle of Knowing and Path of the Twelve, for over 15 years (and they didn't get a 5-year magical break like us either), while at most we've maybe been around for one year (maybe two in total for legacy players if you consider that they might have been at it for one year as well). They've pretty much been single-handedly responsible for all the good that's come both before and after the Calamity, even being responsible for the Grand Companies, and yet they've lost Louisoix and it had a huge impact on them. As a whole, the Scions get used by everyone and don't even get paid much for it if we're to believe Tataru's complaints about money always being an issue.

This is why it always upsets me when people say things like we're just being used. Of course the bad guys would say it, out of ignorance at best and as an attempt to lead us astray and get us to turn on our friends at worst, but anyone who has really observed the Scions should know better than to think we're just being used by them. Losing them in 2.55 was not just a temporary loss of purpose for us, it was a devastating, crushing blow to our spirits, in addition to being a huge loss of resources. And this is the other thing: we use them as much as they use us, if not more so. All we do is fight and solve people's small problems, we're never asked to overthink things and all the resources and information we need are provided to us by others with the skills to gather them for us. We don't even have to deal with politics because others handle that for us as well. Were we just a lone adventurer bumbling about, we wouldn't know half the things we do, nor would we be able to accomplish any of the things that we have. I think it's extremely important to remember this.

[CyberForte]

You're missing the point (and running on one quote that doesn't exist in-game for your argument). While we are given support, we're still just following orders. Nobody really cares what we want.

Ilberd's comments on how we're just a tool during "Keeping the Flame Alive," combined with many of the things Fray says during the DRK 30-50 line, really hit close to home. Nobody really cares what we want - not the city-states, not the Scions, not even Hydaelyn Herself - only what we can do for them.

Even if we're provided support, we're still just a tool. (But this is really off-topic...)

I really have to agree with Tenkuu here--I think you're seeing undertones that aren't there, possibly because of your personal perception of the situation as a player rather than a character. Ilberd is a delusional fool trying to bring you down to his level with whatever twisted rhetoric he happens to have on hand. The fact that he was naive enough to actually believe Lolorito would help him in the long run speaks volumes about just how perceptive he actually is(n't), and the fact that he saw Raubahn's success as something that needed to be torn down suggests he has a serious complex about trying to defame anyone who was actually successful. We've been significantly more successful than him, both as an adventurer and an enemy of the Empire, so of course he wants to try and pull us down.

Also, let's consider that he's the man who gave Eline that big speech about how he sold his sword but he would never turn on his allies--only to turn around and do just that. And even if you still want to take him seriously, I would personally interpret his "you" as a collective--accusing the Scions in general of being pawns of the city-states. Unless I'm badly mis-remembering the quote, it was the city states he accused of of being pawns of. And if we're sticking with the chess metaphor, then my personal answer to that is that if we were once a pawn, we've long-since become the pawn who crossed the board and became a Queen. Just because we're still following doesn't mean we don't agree, on the whole, with what we're doing. Maybe I was too quick to say you're entirely wrong, because a lot of this is open to interpretation based on your character. Obviously, the actual interpersonal relations with the Scions depend on that beyond what we see in the existing cutscenes. and dialog.

Speaking as a Dark Knight main, though, I feel you're reaching to associate the sense of being used that was presented in those quests as being caused by the Scions. No, it was very clearly building on the backlash of being betrayed in Ul'dah--a sense of being betrayed by the people we helped, as presented in the Lv 45 quest with the merchant who asked you to retrieve his goods, then turned around and tried to accuse you of having ruined them. It was the sense of ingratitude for what you'd done, not the fact that you had to do it--never mind that the flavor of quest being attacked was much more in line with sidequests than the main quest. Aside from the questgiver in the Lv 40 being afraid of you for "Frey's" outburst, there was no real negative consequence of saving the people there who actually needed to be saved.

Similarly, in the Lv 50, the knights who asked your help--like the Scions--proved to be good people who were willing to pull their own weight in dealing with the problem, and the accusation of Heresy wasn't actually a consequence of having helped them in any way. While your character might have personally felt backlash against the Scions, the quests themselves do not, as far as I can see, actually suggest that this should be the case for everyone.

Indeed, for me personally, the strongest argument against your claims is not the fact that the Scions gladly risked themselves to let us escape, but Minfilia's "you are my pillar of strength" scene. Given I had already felt very close to her before it, that scene--to me--cemented the sense of having a very close relationship with her, along with the rest of the Scions. Also note that the first thing she says when saved in 2.0 story, even before thanks, is that we shouldn't have risked ourselves to save her. That certainly isn't the way I'd expect someone to react to being saved by someone they saw only as a tool.

Edit: I do feel the need to add that Alphinaud is the exception here--but I never quite thought of him as one of the Scions. In 2.x quests, it's much easier to make the argument that he saw us as a tool, but that has a lot to do with his particular character, being a precocious son of the very elitist Sharlayan nobility. Alphinaud in 2.x saw himself as being much more important than he was, looking down on his sister and her views and seeing us as little more than a useful tool. But even that started to change over time, and in HW it's definitely almost entirely a thing of the past. But projecting Alphinaud's attitude onto the rest of the Scions doesn't strike me as a appropriate.

And back on topic--maybe for others, the fact that he didn't ask much of is was why they liked Haurchefant, but that wasn't a huge aspect of it to me. And where it was, it was not in contrast to the Scions and our other allies, but rather the fact that he was much, much, much more reasonable in his dealings with us than anyone in Coerthas had been. I certainly appreciated his enthusiasm in the scene where he'd actually had to be restrained from coming to help us fight, but us that really any different from, say, Thancred's frustration over not having arrived for Ifrit sooner? And according to Edmont, he saw us as hope personified--very similar to Y'shtola's sentiment of us being the beacon of hope toward which all men are drawn. At least for me personally, much of what made Haurchefant so deeply likable was his similarity to our (at that time missing) friends in willingness to help and support us unconditionally from 2.55-3.0.

[CyrilLucifer]

I don't know, I agree with Cilia to an extent. I believe it was repeated by another NPC, it wasn't just Ilberd saying it.

My viewpoint of it is that you are a weapon, but a well-cared for one, affectionately groomed, tempered, and well-oiled. You're not a weapon they'd care to lose, but other than Minfilia, who does show some interest at times, they aren't particularly interested in the weapon's mental state, at least in 2.X. It was a bit better in 3.0.

This really came off hard on me after Keeper of the Lake when, "lol, so what if you have a dragon in your head mocking you, sealing your power, telling you how insignificant and unworthy you are? We have things to do, get back to work!

Oh, and, you know, it would probably be pretty bad politically if you let anyone know about it, so keep it a secret, k?"

The first part is basically exactly what happened to Thancred, but he was driven by his own dark emotions rather than an external, extremely overwhelming primordial force whispering it and exerting influence, as Midgardsormr does to you. Look what happened to him when he pushed himself like your character does and no one stopped him.

[Alisa180]

*snip

Let's be fair here: It's outright stated that the WoL didn't tell the full story of what happened to them. It's only after everyone else leaves that they reveal to Minfilia that they lost the Blessing of Light, for instance, and only because she sensed something 'off'. (As a point in your favor, though, in the JP version Middy says there's no need to keep the seal a secret. Yet they do anyway.)

Its been made pretty clear that the WoL is a 'follower' instead of a 'leader.' That's not a bad thing, though. A good comparison, I think, is Zero from the Mega Man Zero series. Zero is a legendary hero, does all the fighting, and single-handily turns the tide of a war, but he follows the lead of others. In his words, he simply 'fights for the people he believes in.' Zero tried going off on his own for about a year, accomplished jack shit, and realized he needed to return to his friends to regain his purpose. Which he did, kicking off the plot of the second game.

The WoL is a very similar case. Remove the Scions from the equation, and they become aimless. See: Right after the attack on the Waking Sands. There was very little indication that they were going to go on to do anything more for a long while yet, before Alphinaud showed up and kicked them back into gear. Fact is, they need the Scions just as badly as they need us.

...Huh, thinking on it more, there are a number of thematic parallels between Zero from MMZ and the WoL. You should look up and read the MMZ game scripts sometime, and hopefully you'll catch onto what I mean.

[Tenkuu]

Let's be fair here: It's outright stated that the WoL didn't tell the full story of what happened to them. It's only after everyone else leaves that they reveal to Minfilia that they lost the Blessing of Light, for instance, and only because she sensed something 'off'. (As a point in your favor, though, in the JP version Middy says there's no need to keep the seal a secret. Yet they do anyway.)

Minfilia does say that she doesn't wish to worry the other Scions, and you assured her that it was not a problem, after all.

The WoL is a very similar case. Remove the Scions from the equation, and they become aimless. See: Right after the attack on the Waking Sands. There was very little indication that they were going to go on to do anything more for a long while yet, before Alphinaud showed up and kicked them back into gear. Fact is, they need the Scions just as badly as they need us.

This is pretty much exactly what I said: without the Scions, we lose our purpose. After the raid on the Waking Sands, we were literally just going where other people told us, until we got to the church and the priest told us to take our time and didn't send us off anywhere. We were back to being the lone Adventurer doing odd tasks for random people, only this time we didn't have much to do in terms of helpful tasks either.

[Tenkuu]

The first part is basically exactly what happened to Thancred, but he was driven by his own dark emotions rather than an external, extremely overwhelming primordial force whispering it and exerting influence, as Midgardsormr does to you. Look what happened to him when he pushed himself like your character does and no one stopped him.

You can be certain that Lahabrea had a more personal hand in Thancred's emotional breakdown than what we saw. After all, Thancred himself implies that he fell into an Ascian's trap, and it was during his investigation of them that his possession began to take place.

[Tenkuu]

Also, let's consider that he's the man who gave Eline that big speech about how he sold his sword but he would never turn on his allies--only to turn around and do just that. And even if you still want to take him seriously, I would personally interpret his "you" as a collective--accusing the Scions in general of being pawns of the city-states. Unless I'm badly mis-remembering the quote, it was the city states he accused of of being pawns of. And if we're sticking with the chess metaphor, then my personal answer to that is that if we were once a pawn, we've long-since become the pawn who crossed the board and became a Queen. Just because we're still following doesn't mean we don't agree, on the whole, with what we're doing. Maybe I was too quick to say you're entirely wrong, because a lot of this is open to interpretation based on your character. Obviously, the actual interpersonal relations with the Scions depend on that beyond what we see in the existing cutscenes. and dialog.

I'm equally certain that those who verbally attack us mean us the Scions rather than us the individual character. I also have a feeling that any misinterpretation is due, yet again, to a bad translation. I would love for someone to pull those scenes in japanese and translate them so that we could get a clearer picture of what's actually being said. The Warrior of Light is someone whose upstanding character is admired, so I agree with you, and I would even add that because of this personality trait, we would not fight for something that we did not believe in. Proof of that is evident in the way we handle those who betray us: we don't hesitate to fight them. Btw, even outside of the cutscenes you can see who the Scions are in their ever-changing idle animations in Waking Sands and Rising Stones, and what they are outside of their quests and fights (and even in a few MSQ cutscenes) are adorable goofs who like to poke fun at one another and enjoy their off time like regular people.

Speaking as a Dark Knight main, though, I feel you're reaching to associate the sense of being used that was presented in those quests as being caused by the Scions. No, it was very clearly building on the backlash of being betrayed in Ul'dah--a sense of being betrayed by the people we helped, as presented in the Lv 45 quest with the merchant who asked you to retrieve his goods, then turned around and tried to accuse you of having ruined them. It was the sense of ingratitude for what you'd done, not the fact that you had to do it--never mind that the flavor of quest being attacked was much more in line with sidequests than the main quest. Aside from the questgiver in the Lv 40 being afraid of you for "Frey's" outburst, there was no real negative consequence of saving the people there who actually needed to be saved.

I've barely started the DRK quests, though I did see a video of the level 50 quest, but speaking quite honestly here: what on Earth could the Scions have ever done to you to make you that angry and bitter with them in the first place?

[Dualblade]

I've barely started the DRK quests, though I did see a video of the level 50 quest, but speaking quite honestly here: what on Earth could the Scions have ever done to you to make you that angry and bitter with them in the first place?

This might just be me thinking it, but your Dark self from there is basically just your darkest self. GENERALLY the WoL wouldn't think of them that way, but your Dark version mostly only thinks in negative ways about everything else that it colors all of your memories...making it seem as if you were just being used, that they (and everyone else) don't give a damn about you, so why should you care?

I've seen Persona 4 be used as a comparison, and it fits. Your Dark self is you at your worst...which btw says alot since even with the pile of bodies there when you show up right before fighting none of them are dead. Even your darkest self is good.