The Greystone Bastard (naming lore query)

[Anonymoose]

As far as I can tell, it's actually not mentioned specifically on any of the other minions. Eorzean = English, however, so the memorial is a blanket on every canon.

They all say the same thing otherwise, though. Stephanivien, the eldest son of House Haillenarte, commissioned a mammet programmed to mimic Haurchefant as a memorial to a great knight that fought to the death to protect his friends and countrymen.

[CyberForte]

For me a death done only for emotional impact feels always cheap in a way. If the character dies so you can defeat an evil or if their death is the only way to let you life (an in this situation we could and should have defended ourselves..) or if their death truly changed the story than I can at least accept it. But death just so that we can have a personal reason to go after someone or that they can show how bad war is or to just to have us feel some emotional pain leaves a really bad taste..If he would have taken an enemy with him or if he like Moen, gave is aether so that we could defeat a Ascian for good than it would have been not that harsh. (But still very sad T_T) But killing someone of to create a feeling of vengeance and hate for another character is really the easiest way to do that and with that feels kinda cheap .

[And yes I know that a lot of people die without reason in the real life, but I don't want those deaths in a video game or book. I am mean how bad would it be if for example Aymeric dies because he slipped on the stairs or Thordan died of a heart attack thanks to his old age xD]

While I agree that meaningless death is a Very Bad Thing in fiction--personally, for me, what kills A Game of Thrones is the constant character suffering and death to the point that it becomes very blaise--I would call Haurchefant's anything but meaningless. Certainly we could try to argue that he didn't need to protect us, but there's no certainty in that. Indeed, given Haurchefant's general role, a shield-bearing warrior who can cast cure spells--he seems pretty close to a paladin, which is essentially the sturdiest role that a Warrior of Light can take on in FFXIV, and still the aetherial lance was enough to break his shield and pierce armor. And the fact that he could only react fast enough to throw himself in the way, not push both himself and us to safety, suggests that there was very little time to react, if we would've been aware of it in time to react at all. So I would say the danger that Haurchefant saved us from was very real.

That, though, is not the main point to me, nor even the emotional reaction. At least not directly--while his death serves to inflict a bitter wound upon both our player and us as a reader, I would argue that the true function of this is not pain for pain's sake but rather pain to remind us of the cost. From the very beginning, where our first defeat of Ifrit still came at the cost of those who had been successfully tempered around us before confronting him, FFXIV has made a point that victory doesn't come for free. Again and again our victories have been bought at a dearly bitter cost, and this fact is, to me, narratively very important. If we had simply won every time, without the price we paid each time, then our character would very quickly rise to the status of mary-sue, which isn't compelling at all.

No, there must be a cost for such ceaseless victory. Indeed, even for something like what happened in Ul'dah at the end of 2.55, there has been a price. Each time we have found one of the remaining Scions thusfar, their survival came at at cost. Y'shtola lost her sight, while Thancred lost his magic--we can only guess at what cost Yda, Papalymo, and Minfilia will prove to have paid when we find them as well, but I am almost certain that they, too, will have suffered something for the survival. Raubahn lost an arm, and even Nanamo--who I would argue should've stayed dead, despite that I very much like her as a character--not only lost much of her idealism for having survived, but also was forced to allow the Syndicate's continued existence.

I would argue that, unlike Haurchefant, Ysayle could never have been that cost, because, by the time she died, she was already broken in many ways. No, while Haurchefant came to the battle in which he died with the hope and expectation of victory, full of optomism, Ysayle came to her final battle with a sort of resignation. In her own words, she called upon Shiva "one final time," having made peace with her own death and accepted it. In many ways, I would argue that she chose to die, as I was significantly underwhelmed by her performance against the Gration. I can only attribute this to the fact that she had not only come there to die and make her death worth something, but because she chose to lose when victory would've meant staining her hands with the blood of countless Garlean soldiers. Ysayle's loss could not be a price because its bitterness was tempered by her acceptance and even choice of it, while Haurchefant instead left a gaping wound that nothing, not even vengeance, could so easily salve.

[Dualblade]

Here's my prediction: The question that will inevitably come up as a result of the Warrior of Darkness drama and whatever the hell Elidibus is teasing us about is 'Is the WoL *really* a hero? Have they truly been doing the right thing?' There will be a *severe* moment of doubt, about the WoL and everything they've fought for. I cannot say what else will happen, but I think Haurchefant's memory will play a role. He believed, to the very end, that we were a hero. That we were 'hope incarnate'. And that memory, combined with whatever else happens, is going to help the WoL and the Scions flip the metaphorical bird at whatever 'awful truth' the Ascians will inevitably drop on us.

Its things like this that ensure I will always have Paladin up to level cap at some point, and that my shield will be glamor'd so the House Fortemps shield is show proudly.

[Alisa180]

Its things like this that ensure I will always have Paladin up to level cap at some point, and that my shield will be glamor'd so the House Fortemps shield is show proudly.

Heck, I started leveling PLD because of that shield. I changed my title to 'House Fortempts Knight', keep a stack of Armourcraft Glamour prisms so I can keep glamouring the shield as I level up, and have Wind-Up Haurchefant following me whenever I don't have my chocobo out.

Early on in the GLD quests, you get this from the trainer:

MYLLA
As gladiators, we are trained to engage enemies at close range, weathering their attacks as we deliver our own. However, there are times when we must do battle alongside allies whose talents are not the same as our own.
In such a situation, your role is not to slay the enemy in front of you, but rather to defend the man beside you.
...
You must learn to draw the enemy's attention to yourself and to trust in your stout constitution to endure. In so doing, you protect your weaker comrades who would otherwise perish.

Which struck a chord with me in the wake of Haurchefant's declaration that 'A knight lives to serve and protect'. Also, I recently learned that Paladin is actually 'Knight' in Japan, which adds yet another layer to it.

[Tenkuu]

I agree with this. If fact Alphaunad's realization that the Warrior of Light is an actual person and not just a convenient implement of mass destruction in 3.0 is a large part of what has made me start to warm to his character. With most of the Scions regardless of how much I may like their character have never really felt like friends with the WoL. Allies yes, or coworkers perhaps but if the WoL suddenly lost a leg or the Echo tomorrow and was no longer able to fight, I don't feel they'd stand by them. Feel bad, sure. Send them a gift at Starlight, sure. Maybe drop by if they were in town and not too busy. Hauchefant on the other hand I feel would have done whatever he could have to help the WoL. While he certainly found the ability to fight primals . . . er . . . impressive, the sudden lack of that ability would not have changed his regard.

I strongly disagree with this. In the first place, Alphinaud and the first Scion you meet both talk to you and interact with you before you become someone meaningful to them, and both do so in a friendly manner and because they admire your character/personality. At this point you're only starting to make a name for yourself, and only by doing helpful little errands for people. You really haven't done anything special by the time of your first real battle which, in my case, was aided by Thancred against a voidsent. To Alphinaud, you're at best the newbie Scion who's wandering around wide-eyed listening to speeches from all three Grand Companies. You're invited to join the Scions because of your budding abilities, sure, but you are then trusted and confided in by Minfilia, Thancred, Moenbryda and Yda, at the least, and if you go in the storage room, the other minor Scions who happen to be there at the time all include you in their conversations as well.

The Scions are perfectly willing to risk their lives for the WoL and Minfilla in 2.55, but I ultimately felt like it was more because they believed that was the best way to protect Hydaelyn. Hauchefant's sacrifice was only to protect the WoL for no other reason then he did not want a world without them in it.

Please don't demean my Scions. They do risk their lives for the WoL and Minfilia, but they also do so for one another. Their belief in the WoL is not empty hero worship, but rather comes from them witnessing the little miracles we've brought about, not the least of which involved saving the majority of their lives. To say that they have no personal attachment to us, in my opinion, is to greatly misunderstand them. Much as I love Haurchefant, our relationship with him was nowhere near as personal as the one we had with the Scions.

I've always felt that the surviving members of the Circle of Knowing share a comradery with each other that the other Scions are not a part of. This isn't actually a criticism of how the Scions have been portrayed given that even if you are a Legacy player you don't actually interact with them outside of "work" that much, so it is not surprising. I praise Hauchefant's character more since they managed to give him a more personal relationship with so little actual "screen time" when compared to the other characters.

This isn't all that true. Thancred and Minfilia have a relationship of siblings, and it's pretty obvious at several points throughout the MSQ that she's on his mind a lot. Other than that, when you've pretty much known each other and been working together for at least 15 years, you're obviously going to develop a certain closeness. More to the point though, the loss of Louisoix binds them all, and Minfilia, much closer together than those among the Path and Scions who barely knew him or even might have heard anything about him. This is something that's clearly shown from an early point to weigh on them, and particularly on Thancred, causing his lack of self-confidence and his need to overachieve.

[Tenkuu]

Arguably that's why Alphinaud, Estinien, and Ysayle all become friends with the Warrior of Light to varying degrees - they treat you more like a person than a tool compared to how it was with the Scions' "Go kill this primal, Warrior of Light!"

I don't feel that it's right to call us a tool to them. If you want to say that anyone was a tool, it would more likely be the minor Scions hanging out in the storage room who get sent out on little missions. We are included among the major Scions, directly aided by them, and entrusted with some pretty important missions. They're not asking you to do anything without them, they're asking you to work with them, and since you're the one with both the Echo and the fighting abilities, your abilities are used in the best way by having you fight the Primals while the other Scions do what they excel at (other than normal combat) and gather information for you. Either way, we are never sent off on our own without any support.

Would it invalidate his death though? I mean we'd have an actual primal we would feel conflicted about putting down and it would be a smart move by the ascians since they're struggling in their fight against us. You'd have a primal that's more than just your typical Garuda, Titan, Ifrit ect. who are just sword fodder. Shiva was interesting and so was Ramuh since they were more complicated than just a standard primal. I mean I doubt SE would ever do it, but I don't see how it would invalidate his death considering he wouldn't be the Haurchefant we know but a mockery of his person, like Bahamut was according to Tiamat. In spirit Haurchefant would very much remain dead.

Keep in mind that no matter how conflicted we felt about Thancred's possession by Lahabrea (which of course Lahabrea used to twist the knife in the wound), we still would have been forced to kill him if we hadn't been able to save him. And no matter how one as the player might have felt about him, he was still a friend and comrade to their character, especially if they started in Ul'dah. You could say though that the primary reason for saving him was because Minfilia begged us to.

In this they showed that the soul becomes part of the great lifestream and maybe one day parts of it will go back and be reborn as another person. Later also we have the situation with Y`shtola who was in the lifestream for a short time but she said that she had a hard time to keep herself together.

These two things show me that this version of the afterlife does not include any kind of heaven. And that its quite likely that anyone that dies loose their own self and be united with the stream only to maybe one day be reborn again as a completely new person.

FFXIV's Lifestream is implied to work in much the same way as FFVII's, right? If so, we do know that strong souls keep their personalities and can freely navigate the Lifestream, such as Aerith and even Sephiroth (maybe even Zack to some extent), and other souls are merely part of the Lifestream, integrated into it, until they can be reborn. Since the Lifestream is the lifeblood of the planet in both series, it would make sense that rather than a meaningless heaven, it is instead a way for life to never truly end.

[Cilia]

I don't feel that it's right to call us a tool to them. If you want to say that anyone was a tool, it would more likely be the minor Scions hanging out in the storage room who get sent out on little missions. We are included among the major Scions, directly aided by them, and entrusted with some pretty important missions. They're not asking you to do anything without them, they're asking you to work with them, and since you're the one with both the Echo and the fighting abilities, your abilities are used in the best way by having you fight the Primals while the other Scions do what they excel at (other than normal combat) and gather information for you. Either way, we are never sent off on our own without any support.

You're missing the point (and running on one quote that doesn't exist in-game for your argument). While we are given support, we're still just following orders. Nobody really cares what we want.

Ilberd's comments on how we're just a tool during "Keeping the Flame Alive," combined with many of the things Fray says during the DRK 30-50 line, really hit close to home. Nobody really cares what we want - not the city-states, not the Scions, not even Hydaelyn Herself - only what we can do for them.

Even if we're provided support, we're still just a tool. (But this is really off-topic...)

[Tenkuu]

You're missing the point (and running on one quote that doesn't exist in-game for your argument). While we are given support, we're still just following orders. Nobody really cares what we want.

I don't really know what quote you're talking about, I didn't quote anybody from in-game. If you're talking about your own quote, I wasn't referring to it specifically, but rather just to the general idea behind it. You can't say that we're "just following orders" though, our input is asked for several times and we fight the Primals because we agree that they're a threat, not merely because we were asked to. Even if you wanted to use the orders argument, the other Scions all follow Minfilia's. If she sends them somewhere, they go, and if she asks them to return and report, they also do. It is simply the way that their organization is structured, but there is no coldness to it, it is simply for the sake of order and clarity.

Ilberd's comments on how we're just a tool during "Keeping the Flame Alive," combined with many of the things Fray says during the DRK 30-50 line, really hit close to home. Nobody really cares what we want - not the city-states, not the Scions, not even Hydaelyn Herself - only what we can do for them.

And why would you listen to Ilberd of all people? As for Fray, of course your dark side would find all of your doubts and insecurities and prey on them. Lahabrea did the same thing to Thancred, remember? Just because they bring it up doesn't mean that it's true; all it means is that in one moment of despair, people are inclined, or at the very least tempted, to believe those things.

Even if we're provided support, we're still just a tool. (But this is really off-topic...)

I can't agree with this. Having abilities and being useful, and having people around you make the most of those abilities while providing you with support, does not make you a tool. Besides, the tool argument would hardly apply to only us: the Scions have been at it since they were the Circle of Knowing and Path of the Twelve, for over 15 years (and they didn't get a 5-year magical break like us either), while at most we've maybe been around for one year (maybe two in total for legacy players if you consider that they might have been at it for one year as well). They've pretty much been single-handedly responsible for all the good that's come both before and after the Calamity, even being responsible for the Grand Companies, and yet they've lost Louisoix and it had a huge impact on them. As a whole, the Scions get used by everyone and don't even get paid much for it if we're to believe Tataru's complaints about money always being an issue.

This is why it always upsets me when people say things like we're just being used. Of course the bad guys would say it, out of ignorance at best and as an attempt to lead us astray and get us to turn on our friends at worst, but anyone who has really observed the Scions should know better than to think we're just being used by them. Losing them in 2.55 was not just a temporary loss of purpose for us, it was a devastating, crushing blow to our spirits, in addition to being a huge loss of resources. And this is the other thing: we use them as much as they use us, if not more so. All we do is fight and solve people's small problems, we're never asked to overthink things and all the resources and information we need are provided to us by others with the skills to gather them for us. We don't even have to deal with politics because others handle that for us as well. Were we just a lone adventurer bumbling about, we wouldn't know half the things we do, nor would we be able to accomplish any of the things that we have. I think it's extremely important to remember this.

[Ayuhra]

IDK I think the Warrior of Light IS seen as a tool. This actually comes to a head in the Dark Knight quest chains. Part of the reason so many people love Haurchefant is he is genuinely attached to you and sees you as a person. The Scions do not dislike you, you are family, but you are also a means to an end for them. Alphinaud calls you his "champion" and is relieved when you come out of ordeals like the Vigil unscathed because it means he won't have to find a new one. Heavensward has him actually physically traveling alongside you and him learning to see you as a friend and not a tool is actually part of his character arc.

[Ronove]

You can't say that we're "just following orders" though, our input is asked for several times and we fight the Primals because we agree that they're a threat, not merely because we were asked to.

To be entirely fair if we say no to fighting a primal, you're dooming quite a number of people. So it's not really a choice in that aspect since there's not really many people at all who can take down a primal like the WoL can.

Although I do think the WoL is being used because it's convenient. Yes I still think the Scions are our buddies (they definitely started seeing us as someone they could use for their organization but it grew past that) but they know if there's ever something they need, they can ask the WoL and the WoL will say yes (like the tame example of Yda sending you to get flowers--sure, she was kinda depressed etc. etc. but even Rowena pointed it out--WoL never says no). Which is why Hauchefant feels a bit different because he never really asked you to go risk your life to take down a primal for the good of the realm (at least as far as I recall)--I don't really recall him asking you to do anything rather he's there to back you up. I think perhaps the Scions are just so used to the WoL basically doing whatever for them so they come to rely on them which creates a feeling of being used.